So at what point does anybody notice that a discussion about how WOC voices are marginalized irrefutably turns to the who and who is not marginalizing and how or who is not a bigger tool
and magically and whimsically manage to lose the WOC again?
AKA
If a discussion about WOC features few to none of those WOC you are talking about when does it stop just being problematic and become a problem your willing to fix?
Tuesday, March 03, 2009
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29 comments:
Comment #70 here.
Yeah, I'm noticing the series is a bit more... Presentation-oriented? It's not really evaluative. It's "this is what we are/where we are right now."
For oNce in my life ( DATE IT ) it may never happen again. Even though i started with questioning teh series I'm jsut like
In general when does it change
I'm not sure where I am/am not welcome anymore, so if I'm not welcome here, I'll refrain from commenting. I just want to say that I agree with you. I doubt any changes will be made, just a lot of justifications and fingers pointing elsewhere. You do not get people to work against what they have identified as their basic self-interest, especially when they are not fully aware of the scope of implications/influence of that interest.
OCta I se ethat but at some point it has to be a less whwere uncomfortable and a just do it
Ilyka I think this is the DEEP salient point
Top down approaches annoy becaus eat teh end your trying to make sure you stay on top. thats the benefit of the approach. YOu create somewhere you can be on top and then work
I LOVE peek into daily lives I am nosy and like knowing about people. FULL STOP
maybe part of teh revolution is getting peopelto believe tehy are worthy with out teh bells and swhistles
FR-welcome I block nothing but i do regulate as i se efit
BA, did you see that the specific comment pointed out the WW navel gazing and began a discussion of an issue that one of the WOC present had brought forward?
I'm not suggesting for a minute that this is anything other than one comment, and I don't mean to be self serving because I'm as capable of getting caught up in my own BS as the next person.
But I think it's important to acknowledge that it's not just a sea of people unwilling to "just do it," even if the efforts are too little too late. There were some WOC in that discussion who were speaking, and there were some WW in that discussion who were engaging honestly about the substance, not just complaining about the situation being "problematic."
I agree OCta
and i think that's part of my issue . PEople are willing and trying and it seems like often times discussions have that happen and exist to thwart them
I agree peopel are there but it is very much in this vein macro of
Why is it so hard.
WHat is about this taht makes it so hard?
NO anger or judgement
but literally this i s DIFFICULT
and some folks is trying why is it so hard
Few things...
1) Thanks for our chat today. My post today, though for FF, really was from your turning up the heat on my ass, so Thank You.
2) This happens a lot - losing woc in the issue. I remember when you brought this point up before...something like when Feministe posted/wrote a piece about radical women of color bloggers (Me, you, BFP, Donna, and other rwoc) should be more supported, etc, but the thread turned into Feministing and Feministe counting how many woc bloggers they have.
It was, uh, strange, to say the least.
I think it's interesting that when a thread is labeled "derailed" it's because it's going into attack mode on someone and away from the original issue, but when it bleeds into the usual stuff, no one really does anything to deepen the conversation.
I'm not sure. I was following it with interest, but I don't see anything nuanced coming soon so I tuned out.
Good point. I think sometimes people bring different motivations to the blogosphere than IRL. It can be good or bad, but often has to do with caring about how one is perceived rather than wanting to roll up ones sleeves. This leads to intricate and convoluted discussions with much posturing about the difficulties.
Whereas IRL there isn't as much talk and because there are no or few public testimonials of how great an ally somebody is, one either is "just doing it" or silent. The blogosphere creates a whole bunch of ways to *seem* to be doing a whole bunch of shit that adds up to zip.
Lisa -- that is interesting. When you say "the usual stuff," do you mean as is the competition for who has the most WOC bloggers, or something else?
Also, re deepending the conversation -- do you mean procedurally, substantively or both? As in-- talking about better modes of engagement, or jumping in to talk about substantive issues such as the variety of WOC issues posted about at BFP's or your place or Womanist Musings or Racialicious?
I'm just going to travel around the internetz and say "What Ilka said" right after she posts.
"when white women feel a compelling enough interest to make sure you are named, present, and engaged--willingly, which means you feel safe and you want to be there, even if there are differences of opinion."
That right there isn't all that fricking difficult. It's not as if woc are hiding under rocks and behind firewalls and using secret codes.
Here is the link that BA once wrote about: http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/23/expecting-more/
I couldn't find BA's response, but it was kind of brilliant.
Now, the post starts off with "expecting more," and "it behooves you to swim against the current," all agreed. But the thread doesn't explode like others do, the questions remain unanswered. There's no delving deep into WHAT IS GOING TO CHANGE, HOW WILL THINGS CHANGE?
In terms of blogging, what has changed since this last post except a lot more division?
Octo - I like your phrase "better ways of engagement," but I don't know how that happens between "big" blogs vs. "little" blogs; "group" blogs and individually run blogs.
::sigh::
I'm getting kind of burned out from these conversations and may sense an impending hiatus ....
"There's no delving deep into WHAT IS GOING TO CHANGE, HOW WILL THINGS CHANGE?"
True.
"In terms of blogging, what has changed since this last post except a lot more division?"
I agree with what Ilyka says about "There's a difference between 'covering WOC issues' and 'engaging with WOC issues.'" I think WOC white feminists who are interested in the latter are finding it other than on the BigFemBlogs. While I do see more issues concerning disability, race, orientation, etc. on the big blogs, I think folks still struggle with engaging with WOC issues rather than simply offering up other lefty-movement issues generally.
"I like your phrase "better ways of engagement," but I don't know how that happens between 'big' blogs vs. 'little' blogs; 'group' blogs and individually run blogs."
Hard to say. Renee at Womanist Musings has been doing a collaborative series for International Woman's Day featuring WOC bloggers and white feminist bloggers, many from the BigBlogs. This is a good way of creating engagement that's controlled by the smaller (though growing) blog.
For anyone following RaceFail 09 in the feminist science fiction blogosphere, there is a post http://oyceter.livejournal.com/819945.html by Oyceterthat you should read about the failure of so many to respond to extreme racism in the community:
What I want
I want to know if this is the norm for SF fandom. I want to know what SF fandom is doing to welcome oppressed groups—actively welcome, because simply saying "Come in" to someone who has just been assaulted in your house is not the same as showing them the precautions you have taken against further assault. I want to know if I and my allies will be safe.
But mostly, I want to know what you who have been silent are going to do.
I say this because it is all too easy for me to stay on the periphery. So don't tell me. Show me. Not via links or comments, but by making changes—in yourself, in one aspect of your life, online or offline, public or private, large or small. Help us all change.
And with that RavenM wins.
I definitely respect Renee's series but she's a WOC.
The big kerfluffle about teh trans issues tend to be Lisa and little light.
YEs the peripheral groups can mke great change and have
but
at some point you go ( or I go but yall who know me closely know I is diva brat)
I don't have to and it's NOT WORTH IT
if i make contacts to people i like and groups i want to be with i don't have to stay
at what point do you
stop being oaky with folks getting blindsided.
And sayings o does me no good
You want to know why
cause that's what you said right before the last jumpfest
"I definitely respect Renee's series but she's a WOC."
That's partially the point, though, the BigBloggers have been better at giving guest post spots at their places than joining WOC at their places, so here's an example of them doing the latter. Still a small step, but a step.
"at what point do you stop being okay with folks getting blindsided."
By "you" do you mean the Feminist Blogosphere as a whole? Individual WF bloggers? Big Bloggers?
I'd agree but part of teh work is realizing that teh small step can be acknowledged without being enough to heal teh rift . Great that got better but your dealing with the continued memory of people who did nothing or were perceived to do nothing while other people felt attacked. More needs to be done . And it's nota n evil YOU WILL PAY JUDGEMENT but a
i must save myself one.
You for me in this case is erebody myself included on other issues . That sometimes I didnt do and it wasn't me isnt okay anymore that I am STOPPING THIS has to be part of it
and part of it is a sticky wicket
once i figured out i could talk to you and others without really dealing with bigblogs and have those conversations and felel them not drive me straight up a wall and worry about bad emails and feel like I cry
it takes more like you can see it and realizing its being done and respect that without thinking whats being done will make you safe
I agree those steps aren't going to heal the rift. I don't think we should acknowledge them to gloss over the huge gap still remaining, but to chart some progress.
I'm just trying to figure out what "stopping this" might look like. I think, as you know, there's a fear of stepping out of line on the part of many WF that prevents us from trying to brainstorm these issues b/c of the fear that might look like asking for instruction.
I mean, looking at some of the problems in the feminist blogosphere, there were a variety of reactions on the part of WF. Some wrote in an academic way about it, some went into denial, some got defensive, others seemed to try to engage more.
So in thinking of what a "big step" could be, it seems limited by the fact that there are all these spread-out, individual bloggers -- although granted, the BigBlogs are more conglomerate-like.
I guess I am struggling with what "fixing the problem" might look like. For myself, a mixture of listening, engaging, respect without "marveling," makes sense. But all these are "little" steps too.
I'd agree witha ll of that but I'd say teh big step
might be realizing tehre is no " bigstep"
It took a LOT OF TIME for ity to get this bad there were some big things and little things but mostly it took time
and i think a lot of my caution and issue is that
the nods to taht seem so cursory
that willing ness to invest time and understand tehre may be no reward
that all that willh appen is teh fixing of this is so important
that it is worth teh expectation of time
"I think, as you know, there's a fear of stepping out of line on the part of many WF that prevents us from trying to brainstorm these issues b/c of the fear that might look like asking for instruction."
I think we really need to get over that fear and get over ourselves. We white women must admit that we WILL fuck up and that we WILL get called on it. That is nothing to fear.
Being called on our mistakes is something we receive from people who care about us and hate the fact that we're fucking up and hurting someone. Sure it's embarrassing and humiliating. It's a price we MUST be willing to pay.
If it helps, consider that our racist teachers have done a really good job of training us and some of our most ingrained responses will be based on racism. That's not our fault.
Our fault begins when we can't listen or when we let fear prevent us from interacting with other people.
There are a lot of great suggestions out there about how to help: link to and comment on posts of women of color; purchase and review books, music and art by women of color; support financially women of color efforts; sign petitions in support of women of color. It's pretty easy to find ways to help.
Ravenm -- I am not contradicting what you are saying, simply stating a fact. What you say is wise, but it seems like for those on this thread, it's preaching to the choir. By definition, those afraid of engaging on WOC-run blogs and afraid of appearing to ask for instruction are not here. That's part of why the Feministe-type threads wind up becoming navel-gazing.
It's folks not on threads discussing these issues or willing to go to other, non-Fem-Bigblog environments to meet people where they are, who need to understand the problem with "when we let fear prevent us from interacting with other people."
I think too much time is spent talking rhetorically about being a good ally and not enough time spent doing it. That strikes me as the root problem BA and Sylvia note -- the presentation orientation.
And what BA says nails it. All the steps are little steps, there's no big glorious thread that will fix everything. Hopefully there will be incremental people who weigh it out and are willing to falter and invest time, and at some point there will be a larger portion of speaking "with" rather than attempting to speak "for" or "about."
"By definition, those afraid of engaging on WOC-run blogs and afraid of appearing to ask for instruction are not here."
But why are they afraid? Who is describing WOC blogs as scary places? Who is out there telling white women to be afraid to engage with people of color?
I think I know the answer to that question. It's why I don't spend a lot of time reading those blogs. It's why I don't agree with Mandy and Brittany's whole focus on Big Feminist Blogs. The answers are not going to come from the top down.
I'm looking for something sideways to happen and it already is in a lot of places. We don't know where it's going or what it will become, but there are growing numbers of people who have chosen different paths and I'm walking right along beside them.
One of these days, those folks who thought they were Big Bloggers will have to run to catch up with the amazing things we create without them.
"But why are they afraid? Who is describing WOC blogs as scary places? Who is out there telling white women to be afraid to engage with people of color?"
I don't think there's anyone making orders. Just individual people making bad choices. Not thinking WOC blogs are scary per se, but thinking that fucking up online is scary.
I'm not defending this attitude, just trying to understand where it's coming from. Making a stupid comment IRL usually results in chiding and an apology and it can be over if the culprit really gets it, but doing so online creates a public record and a potential avalanche of criticism (usually from white women trying to show they're better allies). Of course, much of this can be avoided with a quick acceptance of accountability.
But all that takes some backbone, and it's usually easier to just stay where you're comfortable and talk about it.
Octogalore, I am uncomfortable as one white woman talking to another white woman about other white women on a black woman's blog. I'll try to post something on my blog later, but I won't have time soon.
In other news, Adele has her website up for ordering the SPEAK! Women of Color Media Collective CD here http://speakmedia.wordpress.com. I do believe I see a familiar face on that front page! You're so cute, BA!
Raven -- in fact, I think this was a conversation with others involved before you set forth a lecture aimed at white feminists. So a bit confused about why you are acting as if this white-centric conversation happened out of the blue, but quite in agreement that it's taking up valuable space here.
Ilyka: weeds or not, I cosign all of what you're saying there.
per how things change: yeah, i got no brilliant solutions.
just, i was reading up (meanwhile, not very far away) on the SF/F/lj RaceFail '09 business, and thinking of throwing in two pennies--I may or may not, but it boils down roughly to this:
i want off the FailTrain, please, i don't think it's going anywhere i want to go.
where -you- headed? can i come along?
and by that it would be SF/F as well as feminism and, well, just a whole -fuckload- of other situations where the same gorram dynamic seems to keep coming up over and over again.
-waves hand vaguely- sort of processed out this week, though. but i mean, like, i was quite happy not knowing who the hell a lot of the Very Important People or what their damn saga were in all cases, you know? seems to me the really creative and relevant work is being done elsewhere, so...
hi ba--how are you? my email is primitivedragonfly@yahoo.com
for some reason i cant find yours...
love, maia
guerrillamama
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