So I just felt like I got a good solid kick in the chest but that is expected.
BFP explains it better and and wants to open the dialogue better but I guess I need to explain myself
To put it plainly I read Renee's comment and felt like I got slapped mind you I read most of Latoya's comments and felt like i got punched so wohoo keeping in theme.
Not because I need them to agree iwth me , not because I wanted validation
but because rightly or wrongly I hoped that however badly we disagreed on some things that as women of color even more so as Women of the diaspora .
That at least with them I wasn't just Sapphire. That the why don't we fight partriarchy instead argument wouldn'tc ome from them.
That it wasn't a point that needed to be conceded that I love my work enough to want to defend it, that that work that led to this great piece of " truth to power" actually you knwo being held to a standard was at least seen.
And to find out that was wrong literally the air out of my chest GONE.
Because what if it's not my truth? What if the fighting is not because I wish it could have been me ( as BFP points out more times than I'd like to put forth and often haven't for the sake of not tokenizing a sister it WOULD HAVE been me first)
but because for me THIS IS NOT TRUTH TO POWER.
WHat if that kind of framing is part of your kyriarchy ? What if that kind of solipsism and playing games isn your experiences contributed to your assault?
What if the first sexual experience you ever had was someon calling you a whore in front of your screaming father? What if you are 13 years old and this is the doctor supposed to save your life and hearing the shame and fear you feel and still feel could have been fixed by saying Yes harder makes you just think " one more way I didn't measure up"
Reading mercy by Toni Morrisson
SHe writes about JOb. That Job didn't want recognitiion or glory but thati n his suffering he wnate dthe one he followed the ones he saw god as.
SAW HIM
NAMED HIM
not taht he loved him, not that he needed his love or favor
but saw him that he bore this torment because of who he was
I see god in you and you
and in fif nothing else i Believed you saw me.
That no it wasn't that i wanted it to be me
not that I need lessons in networking ( which at this point is so comically insulting i can't help but giggle, I am less than three degrees in these rarefied circles from EVERYONE)
but that I actually had a problem.
That it's not pack up and leave becuase as much as I don't make taht choice I believe as long as you are tortured unsupported and unrespected for making your choice I am not free.
That asking peopel to be accountable isn't a fucking tactic but a necessity to the movement
as for what questions I'd ask
I mean how do you ask how many people have to be erased for it to be sufficient.
How do you ask how do you decide who to be accountable to
How do you intervene when your afraid a woman will get sexually assaulted but if you do so will you?
how does one voice come to replace another
How do you market on an idea that you told us COULDN'T work.
How do you expect us to swallw that bile and praise this
and stil believe you think we are human.
Why do I have to come up with questions to save your soul?
when I am not even sure you see mine
Thursday, February 19, 2009
Questions
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16 comments:
raven’s eye
February 22, 2009
so i have been dreaming about blogs. the first dream was about a blog called: raven’s eye
and as i have been thinking deeply over the past few days about these dreams and visions, i felt compelled to say this:
we, as women of color, have been organizing ourselves for years on the internet. we have started blogs, and e-zines, social networking spaces, list serves, conferences, conversations, groups, websites, cd’s and more. we are incredibly prolific, visionary, each of us coming to this space with individual and collective visions of self-expression, survival, sexuality, business, teaching, learning, community, organizing, solidarity,art, dreams, healing, and love.
in my visions i kept seeing a women and transfolk of color blog. one that was updated daily with our news, analysis, announcements, personal reflections, conversations, and more. a location on the net where we, from our different perspectives and lives, are able to give voice to us. where we agree and disagree, and stay in conversation.
i see this blog as a part of the ongoing organizing and expression that we do both on- and off-line so well in the midst of our crazy, blessed lives.
and so i am sending this out into the ether asking what you think.
are there others who are interested in building such a space for women and transfolk of color?
i can offer a chance to see if this experiment could work. i have some free time to dedicate to the building of this site. a certain amount of knowledge of software and a willingness to learn more. a connection to some communities of color. and a desire to build with you.
please distribute this where you think appropriate.
and if you are interested please leave a comment at guerrillamamamedicine.wordpress.com
To be clear you misunderstood the substance of my commentary at Feministe. It was not directed at WOC it was specifically directed at the women who wrote the guest post at Prof What If. I went into greater detail about this at BFP place.
There was nothing in what I said that was even remotely directed at you. I pointed to YMY as mechanism to prove that there are times when WOC and white women work together to achieve the same ends successfully and I feel it is divisive to act as though we do not share some of the same goals, which the post at What If implied. We are not jealous, nor are we constantly at a state of war at the behest of bitter WOC.
Maia - I will be contacting you on that as i am interested.
Renee_ I may have misunderstood the intent of your substance but frankly to make a comment on that and then follow it up with I read the two pieces and know no history of the book, but still am coming out with the idea that it's a time when there is " work together"
Just hurt.
It is not an understanding thing
The fact that it wasn't directed at me to laud it as a time when " work is done together" RUNS OVER ME.
And if it is intentional ok. but part of the issue is that after ALL OF THE DOCUMENTED ISH ONLINE
people don't even have the guts TO ANSWER QUESTIONS ABOUT IT
It doesn't deal with the fact that when you are among a small few going " OH SHIT NO" and basically create enough stink to change it only to be erased from it
for the reason of being WOC /trans/disabled/queer and "mean about it"
and not " one who works with them"
and frankly the fact that it wasn't directed at me
means that in a critiquing of white women my points got kind of subterfuged to right their mistakes
even as I was a big ( unnamed ) part of it
You are not the last word on what is and isn't the opinion of WOC anymore than I am. I read the two articles from the two people that I referenced and did not find them to be problematic. You are making this personal when it need not be. I didn't challenge any critique on the book, I am simply stating that those two works stand as evidence that white women and woc can work together to achieve the same ends. There are most certainly issues of racism in the blogosphere however, completely breaking into separate camps does nothing to widen the conversation or encourage growth. At some point we need to talk to each other instead of at each other.
Finally you can twist my words in whatever matter you feel necessary to validate your hurt but that does not change either my meaning or intent.
Andi have not said that i am the final word.
I am not twisting your words you are twisting mine
and all i have said is I ma hurt.
I didn't ask for you r validation in fact i went out of my way to say you have a right to them
and your intent doesn't matter
It still hurts me
or do I not get to say that
but that it means something to my experience
and you're right a t some point but right now I'm hurt and I don't feel like Oh it was directed at someone else
indicates to me it is anyway safe.
and frankly at what point does me getting batted over the head or ignored or miquotedor dragged in or disrespected become something I cansay is important and primary OVER
broadening or making growth
I'm glad you dont find those two problematic
a but when every word I write can be pulled or copted when people have tried to fuck with my job my academic future and my very humanity
i can say it hurts and it is personal
TO ME
Renee, I don't think anyone is trying to twist your words; I think that you may not realize the history of YMY in order to get the book to the point of including diverse voices and perspectives. BA isn't speaking from some general "hurt" locus or trying to speak for WOC Proper -- she's talking about the history of the book and how it affected her and many other WOC and allies who critiqued the original callout. It's personal because BA was involved, I was involved, many others were involved -- this isn't some extended metaphor. The book's call was improved significantly from its original scope, and conveniently we were all omitted from that process in its printing.
No one's trying to break into camps or sow dissent; but if we constantly have this cycle where we engage what's out there and people ignore what we're saying, who's really doing the most to maintain divisions?
Again I think I was very clear about what part of YMY I referenced. It never extended any further than that. I understand your point about being continually disappointed, you are not the only one to be slapped in the face by feminism. The only alternative is to disengage and where does that leave us? Are we to pretend that sexism suddenly does not have an effect on our lives or that we don't have every much as right to this movement as anyone else? Yeah I get pissed and angry just like the next person, but no one is forcing me out of a movement in which I have a right to be heard and if I have to scream until I have no voice left to do it, I damn well will.
Finally I acknowledge that you are hurt but what are you going to do about it? What proactive thing are you going to do to assert your power? WOC are born fighting and we die fighting. Acknowledge your pain and get the hell up. We cannot even afford to have one sister down for the count when there is work to be done. What can we do amongst each other to assert the power we have? What can we do to uplift one another? Those are the thoughts going through my mind. This is why I started the WOC ally blog carnival and I am going to keep looking for approaches to raise the stature of WOC online. You cannot wait for opportunity in life, you need create it and it is foolish to expect those in power to cede power because you want them to. No ruling group has ever willingly given up power without a fight, so dedicate yourself to revolution.
I understand your point about being continually disappointed, you are not the only one to be slapped in the face by feminism. The only alternative is to disengage and where does that leave us? Are we to pretend that sexism suddenly does not have an effect on our lives or that we don't have every much as right to this movement as anyone else?
Let me put it this way from my perspective. I can fight against sexism and I can stand up for women's rights to be human without having it saddled up on a "Movement" that takes its time -- deliberately or unconsciously -- to hurt me or to hurt others. I'm not in this to make a claim. If I have to scream in a movement so they barely include me, I don't want to be involved.
I don't know if you noticed; but this recent scolding of white feminists used a lot of criticisms from months ago. Trying to sidle up with every white feminist or with their capital-letter Movement is not the focus of my work; nor do I think it is the focus of BA's work. And it surely doesn't mean no one is fighting sexism.
WOC are born fighting and we die fighting. Acknowledge your pain and get the hell up. We cannot even afford to have one sister down for the count when there is work to be done.
BA is acknowledging her pain; she's been saying "I am hurt" repeatedly. Is she not getting up fast enough for you? And where is she supposed to be going, and why is it assumed that the goal of your work is the goal of her work?
Trying to sidle up with every white feminist or with their capital-letter Movement is not the focus of my work; nor do I think it is the focus of BA's work. And it surely doesn't mean no one is fighting sexism.
Now I see what your real issue is. Sidle up with white feminists. Thanks for making it clear to me exactly how what I do is viewed.
Pardon?
I didn't say anything about what you do or even that's what you did. I said simply that that's what I'm not doing. You seemed to equivocate disengaging with the Feminist Movement with disengaging from fighting sexism. I was saying the two aren't inextricably linked for me.
First and formost,
YEs teh option is to disengage, and what option does that leave me
1) I don't have to worry about empty promises dissapointments and lack of responsibility.
It is not disengaging form the end of sexism , it is disengaging form a movemnt that reallyain't moving and hasn't moved in my neighborhood FOR A WHILE.
And the acknowledge my pain and get the hell up? What am I doing
I have to DEMONSTRATE in a show your creds fest?? ESpecially ewhen i have this annoying habit of NOT BELIEVING OR ASKING FOR ANYONE ELSES
sinceMY PAIN is around the work ( or writing) of WOC ( specifically me and some others) being used to produce important work WITHOUT CREDIT
for me the issue isn't stature ( though I respect your efforts) but that the work is being d one being coopted
and no i don't feel like i need to immediately get up form that, nor that i have stopped working
nor do i have to prove it to ANYONE when for some reason others don't
and frankly DOn't eveer imply I am waiting for opportunity
for what
I have not yet ONCE inferred anything but support for your decisions REGARDLESS OF MY AGREEMENT
You KNOW NOTHING of my life so whether intentional or not that kind of jab at my ethic or production is at best wrong
and at worst misguided and insulting
adn you don't see aNYTHING becuase the way WE VIEW what we have been asked to do is NOT A COMMENTARY ON YOU
but if you take it personal it's okay right?
because i like that's ALL YOU TOOK FORM ANYTHING I OR SYLVIA HAVE WRITTEN.
and quite frankly I'm hurt that i Have to EXPLAIN why I feel my work should be respected, that i Get to have an opinion( and no having that opinion is not breaking into a camp)
and going for THESE WOMEN IN THESE CIRCUMSTANCES
entering into an unjust unfulfilled partnership TO ME
is not
" pretending sexism doesn't exist"
with the added comedy of lots of this " work " that is being lauded as good or prospects of Women working together
HAPPENED BECAUSE I SAID NO IN MY ONWN WAY ON MY OWN BLOG
I am simply stating that those two works stand as evidence that white women and woc can work together to achieve the same ends. There are most certainly issues of racism in the blogosphere however, completely breaking into separate camps does nothing to widen the conversation or encourage growth. At some point we need to talk to each other instead of at each other.
For some background on the Yes Means Yes discussion, here's a Yes Means Yes link roundup at Feline Formal Shorts. This is what had to go down before Yes Means Yes became the anthology that it is today, so those two writers that you mention could come together in this way.
I appreciate that you want to continue fighting on, as a part of the feminist blogosphere/movement in general, because I think your writings are also important and desperately need to be heard. However, I don't think it's fair to ask that other people should continue that way as well, if it's destructive to their well-being. Because what's the point then?
I'm just a lurker, so I know my opinion counts for little, but I don't read any, but the most distant fringes of the feminist blogosphere. Just reading a lot of the things there, as a black, third-gendered trans person dealing with disability issues, pisses the living fuck out of me, so much that sometimes I'm literally shaking. These days, I rarely read posts, even by WOC bloggers, that specifically go through these feminist debates point by point, comment-by-comment, blow-by-blow. Cutting it out of reading list has released so much negativity from my internet life. I can't even imagine the pain of being dragged through such levels of disrespect and erasure, that many WOC, sex worker, and trans women bloggers go through time and time again. But seeing so many slowly turn away, I understand. Everyone has a lot of shit on their plate, we all make decisions about what we can and can't keep on it (knowing there are some things we can never move off, they came with the set).
What proactive thing are you going to do to assert your power? WOC are born fighting and we die fighting.
What does proactive mean here?
I am extremely grateful for Blackamazon's writing. She asks questions that turns some of the ideas that we take for granted in this society inside out and exposes their roots. She has helped me understand things that I never stopped to even look. To see the way she is forming her resistance to the forces that want to stick her in their frame has helped give me courage to create my own path and start forging my own ideas.
And isn't that one of the greatest things a writer can offer? Isn't that how writers change the world? I know that when my health reaches the place where I can interact with other people again, when I start my own projects (because I already have ideas for what direction I want to take), I'll carry her words with me, as I'll carry the words of so many other inspiring writers. Or perhaps, their words will help carry me?
Acknowledge your pain and get the hell up. We cannot even afford to have one sister down for the count when there is work to be done.
I find this insulting to BA, but you know, this shit hurts me too. I feel that BA's writing is part of the work that needs to be done. There is a special quality in her writing, along with some others in the blogosphere, that's just... I don't know how to explain this, but the particular way it's rooted in their experiences and their love and that taste of honesty that creates the possibility of inclusiveness that majority of other blogs/writings don't have, no matter how many of the right keywords they use.
Here, I see the possibilities of a creation of a flexible framework that can adapt to different people's needs, some of the tools needed to create a community that can adapt to the difficulties of addressing different people's struggles. Most people/political ideologies talk like they're at (or near) the bottom of the ladder. So while they may be great at fighting against this V part of X-ism, the lack of flexibility prevents a real inclusion of folks dealing with W and V part of X-ism as well as Z-ism. Then after a certain point, you come to the reality that the number of oppressions and struggles and issues people have to deal with are endless. Then what becomes important is not how right you think your movement is, but how much you are willing to admit when you're wrong, how well you're able to change and accommodate these other issues too.
But even before that, when folks speak as activists, who is talking, what are they talking about, and who are we talking to? Most of the people, who's suffering is dragged out to make a point, in these conversations and dialogues, when we're making manifestos and statements, the folks who are most affected by the oppressive systems we debate about, are rarely present, except for a few. People get out of control, they start spinning webs of theory that spread out all over the galaxy and completely forget their roots, in Earth, in people's real experiences, in someone's real life. So we have to constantly question ourselves, our honesty and our purpose or we'll never get to where we think our activism is taking us.
Writers who help us ask these questions, of ourselves and other people, are doing valuable work. The fact that BA keep on writing, despite all the bullshit constantly thrown at her is plenty of evidence to me, of a person who is standing up and fighting. And even if she decided to stop blogging today, that's still not a concession. When so many of our predecessors have died too early, valuing your well-being (which is difficult for those who need to do it the most) and choosing where you need to spend your energy is still an act of resistance.
and honestly cries at quinacridones*
Thank you
Acknowledge your pain and get the hell up.
Seriously, *this* sort of thing is why I cant be bothered with the 'feminist blogosphere'. Could you be any more patronizing towards BA?
There are, to be quite frank, plenty of things she has written and done in response to the ongoing feminist blogosphere dramas that I am not agreement with at all.
However, I dont feel the need to be anywhere near as dismissive and patronizing as you do. I really think you need to reconsider what you have done here.
"It is not disengaging form the end of sexism , it is disengaging form a movemnt that reallyain't moving and hasn't moved in my neighborhood FOR A WHILE."
You know, I feel the same way about feminism, and I'm not even a WOC. I just...can't in good conscience be identified with most of what it represents. And, like BA and Sylvia, I don't think this means that I've given up on fighting against sexism. And, Renee, I know that you've been using the word "womanism" for similar reasons, so I'm surprised to see this disagreement.
Also, word to what quinacridones said.
Yeah, like Kristin, I'm really quite surprised at Renee's reasoning in this thread. I'm sure I'm speaking out of turn and I hate to get into flaky psycho-babble but I can't help thinking that maybe the hurt at being called a "token" by those other women is still simmering and is now flowing toward people who have done nothing to warrant this harsh treatment. Maybe this whole "what proactive thing are you going to do...get the hell up" stuff is supposed to come off as a pep talk, but damn, the only people who get away with talking to me like that are my Buddhist mentors, my martial arts teachers, and my parents. In my world that's just not really an acceptable way to talk among grown-ups and mutually-respected equals.
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