Our session went wonderfully. Like so wonderfully that I wanted to alight on air.
The feeling of having what you do giving women a place to feel loved and cared for able to do the work of learning to live and take on the world not with hate but with a love a of self.
God I love these women . You have no idea how much I love these women. And how much i love this work
I MET OCTA !
Octa baby GORGEOUS. I'm mad I missed dinner cause i basically came home and fell the fuck out with the WOC just defragging
I really REALLY am over being " watched" .I knwo i don't help it because my natural response to times when i am comfortable is to look back and hard. Also I as a principle DO NOT introduce myself to people who stare at me , but I WILL stare back.
and yes the wifey is a big blonde white woman why is that so odd. And would you prefer to take pictures?
THIS IS NOT A FUCKING FREAK SHOW!
But hey went to QWoC reception going to QWOC ladies night. AWESOME
Oh and will elaborate later
But on some real don't mess with my fam.
Fuck Seal Press.
92 comments:
Yay for good sessions and fun having! :D
Seal Press has NOTHING on WOC!!!
Mucho Love,
Adele
Aww. I have seen pictures of Octo's baby. Is a purty kid.
Thanks BA! It was a real treat to meet the beautiful BA, Sudy, BFP, and Donna at your workshop. You did a great, great job with your session. It was pulled together as well as spontaneous and poetic. A very rousing hour and a half that went by very quickly.
And I think a number of great ideas stemmed from it. The idea of a mentor-mentee match-up site (a la match.com), for one.
You were right -- you do give great hug.
I wish I could have attended :(
Seal Press here. We WANT more WOC. Not a whole lotta proposals come our way, interestingly. Seems to me it would be more effective to inform us about what you'd like to see rather than hating.
---B
First and foremost how ever rude and disrespectful your entrance , welcome to MY blog.
Secondly , considering you want more women of color I find it highly comical your response to a WOC is to tell her what it seems like to you is the best option for her experience.
Because immediately my display of anger is met with a public call for what is essentially servitude
I t seems like to me that this lack of out reach and unbelievable entitlement might have something to do with thelack
And finally since were not toddlers or characters from Miami's most wanted. I would prefer you not use the phrase "hating". YE s my language was strong but yes I would encourage or do EXTRA work for someone who characterizes my words as essentially empty minded hating or envy.
Hi, Krista and Brooke!
Woman of color here. I understand that you want more women of color -- yet when you enter the creative space of another woman of color, you speak about us as if we're collector's items and claim someone's "hating" on your company.
A tip:
Don't try to reframe the situation as if I, a woman of color, should be giving explanations to you two about why you don't publish more works by, for, and about women of color. That's your problem.
We aren't publishers. That's your job.
The way you barged into my friend's space and started making demands is probably a good reason some women of color wouldn't want to send you shit.
Outreach: you fail at it.
"We WANT more WOC."
What a fascinating phrase, truly.
In desiring something, does the burden of labor lay on the shoulders of the desired...or the ones desiring?
I think the latter.
I can't even think of how to engage with such a comment.
Sudy
I appreciate the dialogue, ladies. First off, the blog feels very informal, and my language is in response to the language here:
1. You hate us.
2. We have nothing on WOC.
I get that you all engage best through negative discourse, but I find that too bad. It's not servitude when we pay our authors advances. And book publishing is not an industry of outreach as much as it is editors being presented with an idea and engaging would-be authors in creative co-creation. I just find it curious more than anything that you all are wasting your time hating (yes, purposeful reuse of the word) rather than actively engaging in changing something you find problematic. I totally respect the creative space.
---B
Interesting. I read the "nothing on WOC" comment as an affirmation that the power of women of color outshines whatever may be going on at Seal Press by a million volts, a statement that I would definitely agree with. I know that to be true. I certainly have gained more knowledge, love, inspiration and sustenance from my community of WOC than I have from anything by Seal Press.
But Seal Press read it as meaning that they neither publish material by, about or for women of color. And Seal Press...I assume...would know how true that is. Maybe this presumptive reading practice without even a question as to what is being expressed is part of the reason that the strange phrase "we want women of color" (as authors, as consumers, as slaves...it is unclear) seems so hollow.
And clearly you have not read the blogs of anyone here if you think "negative discourse" is an adequate description. Thanks for the insight into how Seal Press has managed to stay irrelevant.
You say publishing isn't an industry of outreach; but if you want women of color to publish with your company, perhaps you'd better learn you some outreach. Because this demonstration of what you offered to just one woman of color on her space? Isn't it.
"Prove to us you're not haters by showing us some work product or telling us how to do our jobs!" No.
I get that you all engage best through negative discourse, but I find that too bad. It's not servitude when we pay our authors advances.
Like Black Amazon said, it's interesting that you've read "Fuck Seal Press" as an invitation to come here rather than a full-out dismissal of anyone giving a damn about what you want, what you offer, and what you haven't seen.
Is this how the company you represent normally talks with prospective submitters, clients and readers? Come where you're likely not wanted, demand what you definitely haven't paid for, and insult what you haven't tried to understand on your own?
And all of this bullshit about "hating" after talking to (count it) three women of color out of an entire population (millions!) of women of color without voices? Women of color you can't be arsed to reach out to, except for some piddling power play on a blog?
I join my voice with the single woman of color who owns this space: Fuck Seal Press.
Brooke, I find it interesting that you are making sweeping generalizations without considering that YOU and your company could have done anything to merit them.
"You hate us."
Where in BA's entry does it say "I hate Seal Press." It doesn't. Where in the comments does it say that?
Oh, wait. It's not there either.
For you to condescendingly assume that everyone here engages "best through negative discourse" without considering that Seal Press has likely done something to cause this reaction is deplorable. The fact that you entered this space and instead of asking what caused BA's feelings, you and accused her of "hating," was not exactly positive.
Publishing certainly does hinge upon writers presenting editors with their ideas. And if you speak with other WOC as you have spoken with the women in this comment section, "interestingly" enough, I don't have trouble seeing why they aren't presenting you with more ideas.
Further more, who are you to tell anyone not only how they ARE spending their time, but how they SHOULD spend it? Clearly you either haven't read more of their work or you've forgotten it, as I have many times witnessed and consistently been inspired by these womens' fierce commitment to work and change. But instead of considering any of that, you have returned, again, to a space you deem "informal" to make your assumptions to tell everyone how they should lead their lives.
And honestly, I think it's quite entitled of you to assume that because anyone is upset with your company it is their job to fix ("engage in changing") it.
Okay where has anybody said you hate us?
Anybody , BUeller.
Two We have nothing on WOC was not a comment made by me it was a spec ific person , but oddly enough suddlnly it's one group.
Who is this you all ?
My problem is that , BA, Blackamazon the person typing this . Is a hot headed fly mouth who says what she feels off the hinge , and frankly if you said I engaged in hateful foul mouthed discourse , you'd have a case.
But I see about four or five women ( not all of color either) and NOT including me who have been present and loving here.
what you say about respecting the creative space is untrue because what your actually saying is
: I have decided you are hating so I feel free to use negative derogatory characterizations of your feelings and justifyingi t by using the term "creative space"
ANd since i couldn't pick you out of a line up < the presumption of hate is so self centered it is shocking but great.
Insight of a post just above dedicated to love and much more reflective of what went on but hey that post wasn't about you so of course its not important.
B - I was wondering what you meant by writing that "we" -- I'm not sure if you mean just BA, the commentors in this thread, or alluding to a specific group of WOC -- "engage best through negative discourse." And with regard to wasting time - are you referring to specific blogs, fundraising, individual activism, or just the 2 statements you cited?
I'm just trying to understand who you are identifying - "you all"- as hating, wasting time, and not actively engaging and from what basis you're coming from when making that statement.
Because what I find curious is that many bloggers who have commented in this thread engage in critical feminist discourse, do engaging work both on and offline, fund raise, organize conferences...THAT, I believe is their best feminist discourse and I find it far from negative.
Huh???? What? Ok, I'm seriously completly astounded right now. So astounded I'm at a loss for words almost.
You're mad because a person said that Seal press has nothing on WOC? That qualifies as "hating" rather than creativity?
I'm really just so astounded right now, I can't say anything else. This is how seal press "doesn't do outreach"?
Wow, this has really snowballed. No one is mad. We were/are trying to understand both comments, "Fuck Seal Press" and "Seal has NOTHING on WOC" and open a dialogue. Clearly, that's not going well.
K.
OMG. Okay, so I am out of touch because I stopped checking the comments on this post after reading that Octo has a gorgeous little Octo and there is no picture to go with the statement. :) Octo, I know we've had words, but I hope your little one is well, my dear sister.
So... I come back and read a comment... BEFORE even seeing how it has been responded to... I had to re-read it several times, take off my glasses, rub my eyes, squint to see if it reads somehow differently than I saw it at first...
As a womyn of color, just based on that one comment, no one having to tell me what I should think or feel about it, no one having to clarify for me... I will NEVER submit anything to Seal Press.
I've been to their site. I'm not ignorant. I know what they do. I'm not impressed. Like white women need more companies to pander to them and tell them how valuable their views are... not that white women's views aren't valuable... but why is it always over and at the expense of and built upon the back of womyn of color?
So, a couple of white women are running a company for white women and want to whine about why we - womyn of color - aren't running to them to beg them to take our work.
Maybe we are taking it elsewhere. Like, to womyn who "get" us. Who don't whine about being "hated on" while simultaneously hating on (and my I say - MISAPPROPRIATING LANGUAGE) us. Spewing the usual garbage some of us (I can only speak for myself here) have come to expect from white women.
I have no shame reiterating, *Fuck Seal Press*. We can create our own circles that meet our needs without talking down to us, ghettoizing us, limiting us, trying to make us fit some preconception that we aren't supposed to break out of.
Now, let me go read what my many beautiful sisters of color, sisters in solidarity, sisters of love and respect, have had to say about this ridiculous upstart who dares to come on someone else's blog talking ish...
"open a dialogue"
Krista,
For people in the book publishingbusiness, you are woefully ignorant of language. I do not think you have a clue what the word "dialogue" means.
You came on someone else's blog and proceeded to insult her and every woman commenting. That is not dialogue. Do not try to feign like you the civilized ones, trying to extend a kindness to us savages. That just isn't what you did.
To reiterate Aaminah's (well, everyone's) point: how exactly is 'stop hating' a statement that will encourage dialogue? That justification sounds like something I'd hear on ANTM.
Also, you WANT WOC? Is that like wanting a pony?
I want a zombie!
Okay; okay. Obviously they are trying to open dialogue; so let's keep it up the theme they came in with, and everyone jump in with suggestions. Ready?
I WANT a pedicure.
I WANT some really good seafood.
I WANT cranberry juice.
Let's all start saying what we WANT!
Aw... but I just wrote what I want on my own blog (blushing).
http://writeoussisterspeaks.wordpress.com/2008/04/03/something-to-ponder/
ok, well, this is where I'm confused--nothing BA said (fuck seal press) insinuated that she wanted a dialogue. So that means that *you* want a dialogue--and in general, when you want a dialogue with a person that *doesn't* want a dialogue, it works better to say, "I don't understand why you said fuck seal press. Can you tell me why you would say such a thing?"
I mean, am I the only one who is still just astounded? I'm astounded! I even thought, there must be a mistake here, no representative of any company would publicly completly write of an entire community of women (you all) as "haters" and engaging best in "negative discourse"! Not over something like a "fuck you"!
has the world gone mad?
Apparently.
Wow, this has really snowballed. No one is mad. We were/are trying to understand both comments, "Fuck Seal Press" and "Seal has NOTHING on WOC" and open a dialogue. Clearly, that's not going well
Once again speak for your self. I'm PLENTY mad. Not that you insulted me which sadly in two years of blogging is really par for the course , but at the ease at which you insulted my sistren to show how AWFUL and MEAN BA is and not offering solutions. So please YOU may not be mad but after being insulted , mocked and used to excuse a really broad means pirited characterization of people I love. I am plenty hot. BUt shh me actually *gasp* having a care and concern for this space and how its treated is SNOWBNALLING!
----------------------------------
Sigh LOves aaminah
---------------------------------------
PP *tacklehug*- As long as you keeping misisng the memo i hate white women I shall keep tackle hugging you!
-------------------------------------
Bfp I heart you but my astounded left me many moons ago.
NOte taht it is "curious" that I am "hating" than engaging
As if we are animals to be considered and studied than you know engaged ( hi that was WAM for me). WHich oddly enough falls to us to go to them. ( mind you i know movie studios who actively recruit female and POC writers but neither here nor there)
I also knowing almost ALL of you now OFF line as well as on damn near died at the " instead of actively engaging in changing " . It's not like at least three of the commenters haven't written /edited/ for nationally published magazines and or academic journals. OR are writing on their blogs in spaces they HAVE CREATED to change things they find problematic.
or that this isn't happening on a space nearly two years old created by that elusive youth demographic ( hey I'm even of color A COUPLE OF EM) but I'm not actively engaged cause I'm not changing their site ( mind you I wore a suit I'd be paid for it as it's called consulting,marketing,diversity training, take your pick. I do believe a lovely young woman even runs a business online in it so it's not that hard)
I am there for not actively engaging in change.
BUt I told delux I'd learn so I am.
I want to not have my sisters deal with this bullshit.
IT's obvious engaging us as human , was not in their thoughts, respecting the space wasn't either so I see no reason why I or any of should provide them with free ( since at least four of you non creatives I Do believe are educators) services.
Since that is essentially what is being asked for albeit with no sense.
IF you wish too , please go right ahead but why should your amazing fierce energies be spent thusly?
Now if you'll excuse me gotta go engage in some hateful dialogue with folks from the non creative space we did on Saturday!
Apparently.
wow.
just...wow.
please excuse me while I pick my mouth up off the floor.
::bows out::
I waaaaant
a pony and a new pair of shoes and a packet of Junior Mints and a new headband and some jellybeans and a robot and some magical women of color who aren't so meeeeeeean
Something else that needs to be pointed out on top of the usual "I can waltz in and demand that WOC come to me and educate me and then whine that they're being mean if they don't want to" bullshit...
These two from Seal Press are PR people. And they claim that they WANT more WOC, by which I assume from the rest of their statement that they want to publish more material from WOC writers. OK, so that's what they want, and one assumes since they're here that they've been in some way looking for WOC who write. If that is the case, does it not occur to them that stomping into an unfamiliar space, throwing a hissy fit at the hostess and insulting her friends might not be the best way to accomplish that goal? I'm willing to bet that any women reading this who were considering submitting to Seal Press are reconsidering right now. This isn't just rude and condescending, it's strikingly bad PR. And who wants to work with a publishing firm with an incompetent PR department? Also, attempts to communicate with the young folks by using words like "hater" really do make one look like an ass, especially when the young folk in question say "please don't do that" and you do it again.
(And by the way, for PR people you two sure do have lousy communication skills - that whole "we want WOC" thing was phrased in a remarkably inelegant way)
1.this is serious.
2. I did not know what we do is called "hateful discourse."
3. Here we go again, we are hating. We are emotional, hot headed, "angry", but not the "good" angry feminist way.
4. We are wasting our time. We are not playing nice.
5. This only reinforces what we already know, who are we kidding?
a. no one's listening
b. we are the wrong voice
c. we are not smiling brightly enough, don't have the right names and just don't play nice!
6. there is a dialogue when they say there is a dialogue, darn it!
7. Seriously, how dare anyone, anyone say that I,We, alternative media makers, activists not creating change??? I mean, wtf. Because you don't recognize my/our name? Because I/we don't fit your fucking model? cuz seriously, I'm creating waves you can't even fathom. (And folks who know me know I am the most modest person in the world but I recognize the work I do as important and don't need anyone's validation either.)
8. I want peace, I work for justice. You "want" WOC, so you insult us?
9. here I go, being hateful again, when I say, fuck 'em. Create your own media (as we are), Create our own spaces (as we already do).
10. Sign me up for a zombie too.
Apologies for coming late. As the one who wrote "Seal Press has NOTHING on WOC!!!"
I refuse to justify or clarify the comment. But I will say this: Seal Press has NOTHING on WOC!!!!
With love,
Adele
Oy gevalt.
Helpful hint: if you "want to understand" a comment, here's how you start:
"Hi, I'm blahblee from Seal Press and I was taken aback/dismayed to read ___. At your convenience, I'd be really interested in learning what led you to say such a thing."
And then, you -listen- to what people are bloody well telling you.
Congratulations, though: up till this point I'd been pretty neutral to positive about Seal Press in general. Now, less so.
I'm willing to bet that any women reading this who were considering submitting to Seal Press are reconsidering right now. This isn't just rude and condescending, it's strikingly bad PR. And who wants to work with a publishing firm with an incompetent PR department?
Indeed. In fact, I'm aware even as I type of at least one person who had a potential project she had at least intended to try to shop to Seal Press, who just said in so many words, "oh well, so much for that."
lot of potential & past buyers of Seal Press books reading here, too -raises hand-.
nice work.
I WANT something involving chocolate and liquor.
I WANT to start a Telethon for the Clue-Impaired, a la Jerry Lewis. in fact we could raise funds FOR Jerry Lewis.
I WANT to retroactively attend this session, no other; barring that, I WANT to arrange some kind of East Coast meetup already, dammit.
I WANT, uhhhh...
*
ah, right. I think, I shall not speak of those desires here and now. -goes off humming-
(pointed at the comment thread by Sylvia)
I, uh, wow.
Just, wow.
A more textbook case of "When in hole, STOP DIGGING" I have not seen in some time.
Enough is enough when it comes to folks with foot-in-mouth disease. It is time to hit them where it hurts, their pocketbooks.
Since they prefer to mock people, lets start a Seal Press boycott campaign.
A more textbook case of "When in hole, STOP DIGGING" I have not seen in some time.
at minimum, when one finally breaks on through to China, one might at least consider finally shutting one's mouth before one insults one's new hosts too, sufficiently that they throw one back through the tunnel at 500 miles an hour.
p.s. and drop us a postcard.
Oh hell, i didn't bother with all the comments...well, the good ones I read....
Seal Press:
Do you realize what you, and women, and women of color, even women of "tint" are missing here? White feminist books or thoughts are dime a dozen. Amazing WoC voices, like those here, there, and elsewhere are AMAZING.
Hell, all I can say is this. WoC bloggers make me, as a slavic-asian american who looks white, realize and see what I never saw before. I am no longer embarassed when people cannot pronounce my real first name on the first try. I am amazed by the "what are you" questions. AND I AM AWARE OF MY BLUE-EYED privilege!
I am also schooled in history. The great movements? Feminism, socialism, civil rights, EVEN libertarianism...not white movements. Movements with amazing and diverse voices...
Like the one found here. A voice that makes a difference. You just need to listen.
-BA, love and RESPECT. You are worthy of NOTHING less.
"3. Here we go again, we are hating. We are emotional, hot headed, "angry", but not the "good" angry feminist way."
Gotta fucking repeat that again...they fucking have at least one fucking author who fucking writes her fucking books using fuck like every other fucking word. I shit you not. But oh no she's not a hater and what she's writing isn't negative discourse. Actually it's insipid simple minded feminism for 10 year olds but that is what Seal Press looks for in an author. They used to publish ground breaking books for women of all backgrounds but in the last couple of years, not so much. Hey....Brooke, you've been there two or three years, haven't you?
*blog goes boom*
Yeah I love th rhetoric of " hater" yet missing the more common vernacular usage of " gotnothing on" since i do believe it's from the days of NEw JAck City but that's where I could insert a commentary on how people who think WOC are essentially items to be wanted and theni nsults one of the preeminent bloggers feminist or otherwises with a dismissive one word answer ( bfp not me)
would be predisposed to missing real usage by a long as country mile butehhhhhh
so there is no need to clarify mine ADele
( but remember they thought putting a n ape on a book cover carting of a white woman was EDGY with no racial context)
BA, love and RESPECT. You are worthy of NOTHING less.
Thats what I wanted to addres. RRE, all of youguys your support and respect is what I am getting and i appreciate it so much . IT comes form building bridges "out reach" so there is no issue of me feeling unloved
XCNO PWR WELCOME!
yeha but lets wait for either teh deadly silence the claim they dont KNOW ANY WOC
buttehyfound my small as blog plenty quick!
::raising hand::
Seal Press was on my short list of peeps to talk to about a book I'm working on.
Scratch that idea huh?
I mean what kind of poor PR is it to officially stomp in on another person's blog and turn the tables of responsibility. You should tell us what you want to see.
You should, as a publishing house, make it part of your mission to publish the voices of women of color.
Saying that not a lot of WOC proposals come your way is the same bullshit line we've all heard before:
We'd love more woc but they just don't come.
Gee I wonder why?
Anyway moving onto something I care about-
I wish I could have gone to WAM to meet all of you in person.
Late to the party, as well.
Brooke and Krista? Thanks for your perfect example of what we white women do wrong. Please check out Detour Spotting for white antiracists here: http://ci.mpls.k12.mn.us/sites/ee869d27-88e5-478a-97e1-b5e41772b8f7/uploads/Detour.pdf
Please read the following words again:
wonderfully
alight on air
feel loved and cared for
able to do the work
take on the world
love of a self
I love these women
I love this work
GORGEOUS
AWESOME
You, Brooke and Krista, read all of that and called this post "negative discourse". For publishers, your reading comprehension sucks.
Personally, I don't see how I could boycott Seal Press. Our store is full of some awesome writing that really can't be replaced. As a typesetter, I know how hard the work is and how workers in the independent publishing industry are disrespected. I do not want to contribute to that.
But as somebody who puts money in your pockets, Brooke and Krista, I urge you to communicate personally and directly with the people you've insulted here. Personal e-mail at this point, rather than ignorant posts would be best. Ask why these awesome women dismiss (not hate!) Seal Press. Learn the history.
READ these women. They have a lot to tell the world. I am among many women who become stronger because of what they write. Their discourse is love and strength and courage.
"READ these women. They have a lot to tell the world. I am among many women who become stronger because of what they write. Their discourse is love and strength and courage."
Ravenmn, I completely agree! Although, I would go further and say when you're at the same conference or have the opportunity to meet BA, why would you pass it up? Her blog is powerful and insightful, but it's NOTHING compared to meeting her.
You want love, come with love, cause guess what that's what I (we) want too, and here is where you'll find it!
Adele
I get that you all engage best through negative discourse, but I find that too bad.
wow. just fucking wow.
i can't believe the audacity you have to come to this blog and write some stupid ass shit like that (yes, the academic jargon has gone out the window for this one)
i'm so sick of fucking being told that as a woman of color who has something to say, it is already deemed as negative. and i am sure blackamazon, and all the other women who visit this blog or other blogs with something to say are sick of that bullshit, too.
i am so done with white middle-upper class ideas of feminism that try to "include" folks who look like me. at this point, i really don't give a fuck anymore.
i know i'm probably not making any sense, but i am too upset to even type right now.
seal press, just back the fuck off and keep solicting young white women who write about fucking aboriton and how to get laid as a feminist.
and it's bullshit that all of those women sent in proposals for their books. we know that blog celebrity had a hand in the recent sleu of "feminist" books that seal press publishes.
lies.
fuck.
ladies, lets just look towards other venues that welcome our angry negative asses!
i'm so done. makes me wanna blog again to shut these muthafuckas up!
I am totally late to the conversation but I had to comment. I can(not) believe what I just read. If that counts as PR I am never buying a book from Seal Press.
I don't comment here enough but love to BA and all the incredible women who spoke up here.
*blinks*
It's too much to hope for this to be a case of identity theft, I suppose? I mean, surely Seal Press monitors the online actions of its employees more carefully than that.
I just... it's ... this stunned me into silence.
Suffice to say that nothing I write will ever be published through Seal Press or any of their affiliates.
I get that you all engage best through negative discourse, but I find that too bad.
My jaw is on the floor. Unbelievable. And then these people wonder why women of color don't deal with them?
Brooke and Krista -- what Belle said. If you have any training in PR, you should know that your approach was guaranteed to fail. This is a personal blog and BA has every right to express her feelings. If you really wanted to engage or learn more, you wouldn't have jumped in with accusations.
The conclusion must be that you really aren't interested in seriously engaging. There are a number of eloquent, creative WOC voices here that deserve a greater audience, and you had a path to try to make that happen. You blew it, deliberately. Why?
Krista Lyons-Gould and Brooke Warner : We WANT more WOC.
Why am I suddenly reminded of Pokemon? WoC, I choose YOU!
You know what I want? PR people who don't walk into someone else's blog treating women like collectible figurines.
As someone who has Seal Press books that go all the way back to when they first began, I look over their website now and realize not only how much they have changed but how they have seriously narrowed their scope.
They trumpet on their website how they've broken ground on so many things but they no longer exist in their catalog: books like Evelyn C. White's "The Black Women's Health Book", "Breaking the Silence" which was the first book that actually addressed lesbian domestic violence. "Ceremonies of the Heart" which chronicled lesbians who created their own commitment ceremoines long before it became chic to have gay marriage. Those books are gone and instead we get "Full Frontal Feminism." Um, yeah.
As a feminist publisher in the 21st century, Seal should not be begging for WOC authors because by now, they should have already had them, cultivated them and kept them in print. The whole "We want you!" argument doesn't wash these days because at this point WOC and other women authors have found other avenues for their work.
Makes me wonder what Seal Press co-founder (and author of Murder in the Collective) Barbara Wilson thinks of all this. But wait, she's being published by the Feminist Press now - along with a whole bunch of other authors, including WOC. Wonder how they did that? (NOT!)
I get that you all engage best through negative discourse, but I find that too bad.
And I find this comment hopelessly, irredeemably condescending and just downright nasty.
Seriously, who talks to people like this? How is it at all useful in any context? I just don't see how it could be.
as kortney pointed out earlier in these comments, seal press has solicited white women, essentially asking for permission to publish them.
so to come to a WOC blogger's blog and tell her that 'her peeps' or wtfever have to submit proposals 'or else not get published by almighty seal press' (there is no lack of implied threat in the PR reps' comments) is massive BS.
from what i've seen of seal press, it goes like this. white female blogger writing about sex or 'sexy feminism'-- asked to publish, openly solicited.
WOC bloggers blogging about pretty much everything--'oh we can't publish you because we don't get many proposals from your kind'.
seal press is pretty darned irritating.
Holy Moses.
Wow. Just... wow. "Negative discourse"? Really? I am astonished, even though I know so much better than to be shocked by the stupidity of white people. It's not like it's news or anything. But something like this happens and it really drives everything home. This is a clear reminder of how much power white people hold, even in a relatively small, "progressive" publishing company.
Because here are a good number of women of color with plenty to say, plenty of stories to tell, plenty of worth to contribute to the feminist discourse... but you've shut down someone for being too "negative" and damn well alienated the rest of us.
My partner-in-crime and I have three projects in the works, all of which we'd considered pitching to Seal. Now? Never. Not in a million fucking years. Except the one about white people, that might actually prove quite ironic...
So when you lament the lack of submissions by WOC next time, Seal, you remember this incident. And don't wring your hands and ask "Why"?
LadyJ, that is fascinating! I have more than a few shelves full of Seal books at home (including a few you mentioned) and have read countless others. I hadn't put it all together before.
BA, Seal Press commenters, and hell, everyone should take note if you haven't already - Tara over at Fatshionista.com wrote a really great response to the ubiquitous white women's question "Why aren't there more WOC in our movement?" It's specific to fat activism, but applicable across the board. You may have read it already (and BA, apologies if you've already linked to it - this is my first time on your blog), but it's worth reading again.
I am a writer with a few projects in the works and I am thinking that Seal will not be the ideal home for them after all.
P.S. for now -
Kortney: "makes me wanna blog again to shut these muthafuckas up!"
= the only positive thing the two Seal Press *whatevers* have possibly had a hand in, in this discussion.
P.P.S. before the crazy broke out, I had wanted to say that all my unhappiness about not getting to read several bloggers-at-WAM over the weekend for up-to-the-minute coverage has been dwarfed by all my happiness at several bloggers' vivid descriptions I've gotten to read this week.
I can't imagine any press not begging writers like you to publish with them - you make me feel like I am everywhere with you, with the things you women write. *sigh*
There's no possible way for me to address all of your comments or to defend myself here and everything I write, even a single word, gets dissected into oblivion. I posted on Seal's blog about all this today:
www.sealpress.com/blog
Sigh... Seal, whichever of you that comment is from...
No one here is asking you to respond or defend yourself. Quite the contrary, I think you are being asked to butt out. You invited yourself in, said some stupid stuff - not just once, but repeatedly - and now you're upset that no one will let you defend yourself? Really. There isn't any defense for what you've done.
You blew three little words completely out of proportion, failed to see the value in the rest of the long post because you couldn't see past three words, and talked trash to all of us here. No one wants your self-serving "defense" or anything else from you.
I can't speak for everyone, but I imagine I'm not the only one who wishes you just hadn't opened your mouth to begin with, and had stopped after the first clearly arrogant comment. If nothing else, you have proven how horribly unprofessional your organization must be to allow their PR people to go around harrassing people on their own private blogs.
I'm late to the bonfire, as usual. Just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in.
Chalk me up as another one who can't quite believe this whole exchange. HUH?!?
I'll echo what Octogalore said: Why are yall so nasty right out of the box?
(((cringes))) (((scurries away)))
BA-
I promised you in s_n_r that I would delurk on your blog awhile ago, and I'm delurking to say that your words and your voice and your space are special and inspiring to me.
I wish I had been at the good parts of WAM (via some sort of self-duplicating teleporting device), but it looks like the usual shit continues to be the usual shit. I alternate from being astonished to being totally unsurprised.
I want people who fuck up and step on others' space to really apologize, which means really figuring out how to own your shit and not do it again.
LadyJ, that is fascinating! I have more than a few shelves full of Seal books at home (including a few you mentioned) and have read countless others. I hadn't put it all together before.
@chaia
My fondest memory of Seal was the publication of Barbara Wilson's "Murder in the Collective." I was in a feminist collective at the time and we ate that book up!
Watching all of this spin out hurts me in the gut. I worked in a feminist bookstore for years so I know what it takes to keep an independent afloat. However, if feminist publishers like Firebrand could go under, restrategize and come back (with new books and a core of older titles) I honestly don't see how Seal's mainstream push has served them well.
Ironically, the current Seal Press blog post talks about publishing "Colonize This" and guess what? It's out of print. If that wasn't important enough to keep in the catalog, then I don't know what is.
LadyJ-- Because Colonize This! gave them their cred. Don't you get it? They're down! They published a good work by/about WOC! Nevermind that it's out of print! That's beside the point!
I was thinking--why not request that they post a brief summary of their submissions and solicitations. As in
2007:
--Submission by WOC. Topic: Mixed-race identity and science fiction.
--Solicitation of white author. Topic: BBQ and bacon.
--Submission by white woman. Topic: Having sex in wacky places.
Then let us see for ourselves!
What I'm seeing here is that BA is allowed to be mad and write what she wants but Seal Press can't react off the cuf because they should know better. Seal Press gets told how to react to something written about them and then gets told how they should comment.
It's always the same thing. If Seal Press had just approached BA in a different way no one would be attacking them.
Right.
Hi all. I've been lurking for some time, and I appreciate what you have to say.
If I may respond to Beth,
"BA is allowed to be mad and write what she wants"
Ooh, those WOC are so unfair--they let BA express herself!!! Why can't they be more like those nice white patriarchal structures that write her off???
"Seal Press ... should know better."
Yes.
"Seal Press gets told how to react to something written about them and then gets told how they should comment"
Ooh, those powerful WOC bloggers, bullying the poor widdle publishing house. Seal Press should THANK those who have criticized them, because the criticism is an opportunity for them to do better.
"If Seal Press had just approached BA in a different way no one would be attacking them."
Yes. That different way would have begun years ago and would have been an intrinsic structural change in order for it to be effective now.
What I'm seeing here is that BA is allowed to be mad and write what she wants but Seal Press can't react off the cuf because they should know better. Seal Press gets told how to react to something written about them and then gets told how they should comment.
It's always the same thing. If Seal Press had just approached BA in a different way no one would be attacking them.
Right.
Well, yes. One of these is a woman venting in her own space about an experience she had in her own personal life. The other is a woman (or a pair of women) acting in a professional capacity in a space to which they were not invited.
The standards for private and professional conduct aren't the same, and they sure as hell aren't the same when you going from place to place.
Brooke-the-individual or Krista-the-individual would have been perfectly within their rights to have returned "Fuck you back!" to the initial "Fuck Seal Press" statement. Maybe not any more appropriate for BA's space, but that's a different issue altogether.
Brooke-and/or-Krista-the-agents-of-Seal-Press, on the other hand... that's something different.
I didn't know that Colonize This! is out of print. That blows.
I find all this even more interesting given that Seal's been publishing Inga Muscio, including her CRAPTACULAR book on race, which I know various white feminists think is amazing (my friend told me a white woman she knew called it "the best book on race she's ever read"--WHAT?) but, y'know, is fucking offensive & ridiculous.
@johanna
Hey johanna, the women of Seal let me know that it's not out of print, however, I did point out that it didn't come up in a catalog search, hence my reasoning that it was OOP.
And Inga Muscio? What's up with that? There are white women who have written about racism and done it well. Why Muscio get such play is beyond me.
Hi All,
I work for Seal Press, as a publicist. I just wanted to correct small things.
Colonize This! is not out of print.
Krista is the Publisher of Seal Press. Brooke is the Senior Editor. I am the main publicist, but we have a few other publicists working on different books.
Thanks,
Andie East
WONT SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE FERRETS!
What Magniloquence said. My jaw's still kind of unhinged about that aspect tbh. I mean: okay, so now apparently the line of defense is that they're doing the very best they can, but (tacitly) yeah, they've gone more "mainstream" aka "you don't see as much from WoC, no, that's right" and this is because of the "bottom line," yes? Business is business. Okay. And by all means, you know, I can respect someone seeing a sentiment like "fuck Seal Press" and making a little mental note to the effect that if -that person- later changed her mind and tried to submit something to Seal Press...yeah, sure. Such is life. Even "professional" life.
But this? WTF? And then, "we don't want a boycott," well, um, damn, no, I don't suppose you do, uhhhh, did it not occur to you that you really really don't do this in the first place if you -do- care about potentially angering clients and/or customers? Like: maybe there are -other- reasons why one might be having trouble staying afloat...?
SAVE FERRETS!!
Inga Muscio: I didn't even know she had a book on race. I just got as far as the bit where she recommends sea sponges (I think that was her) for tampons in "Cunt" and was all, 'k bye no.
because, there's nothing that says "vaginal health" more than "little bits of residual ocean pollution and barnacle shit in your hoohoo." It's NATURAL!
"There's no possible way for me to address all of your comments or to defend myself here and everything I write, even a single word, gets dissected into oblivion."
That should be clue #5, and that's being generous. Perhaps the place for you to be is not to defend yourself, as innocuous as that may sound it inevitably draws a line in the sand. Why people are reacting to you comments they way they are may not be such a great starting point either. In fact, I suggest taking a step back and shutting the fuck up. No really, don't just shut your mouths so that you can analyze what it is you should be doing or saying, but rather what it is that you are not doing. Clearly that entails not approaching women to tell them how much you want to do with/for them.
Really, it's not a difficult concept.
I know this ain't my house. (BA, feel free to smake the crap out of me for bossin' folks in your house.) And some of this has already happened, but...
Could y'all redirect the Seal-related stuff to Seal's blog/entry and talk about some of the awesome and positive things here that came before the Seal reference? There is a post above this one that talks generally about the direction one of the women of color-directed sessions took at WAM. Also, Syd's wifey did a recent post about what she remembers, and there's a great round-up about WAM at Donna's crib, The Silence of Our Friends (http://the-silence-of-our-friends.blogspot.com).
Or, if any of you are interested in following what work results from the session at WAM -- because trust and believe, there is a lot of positive discourse going on about building in growing -- or you have some positive projects building or great ideas that you want to collaborate on, either share something here saying you wish to be contacted or...well...I'll see about making up a general e-mail address.
I just don't want all the positive energy that came before the publishing company's appearance to be lost forever. And while I think this all could be rectified by seeing Octo's cute-as-a-button kid, I don't know if she'd volunteer that. Just sayin'.
Plus...the support you're showing here is absolutely phenomenal. I want to thank everyone, at least. Lots of love and blessings to you all.
I'll get on that e-mail address idea as soon as I talk to some folks. But yeah. Just sayin'.
(((fades back into neverwhere)))
I guess we know why Seal Press doesn't have much from WOC.
They fucking suck at PR.
Wow.
Sylvia, you are a wise woman. I'm tired of the sideshow of Seal Press's pain derailing a thread about the awesomeness of women getting together at WAM.
HOly bloody Moses. I stop reading this blog for a while, come back and... holy shee-it.
I truly hope the Seal'ers are still reading and can have some tea and cookies and actually let it soak in: WHY might these "meen" peeeepul be "soo maddd..."
but probably they won't.
wow.
belle, if we do a Jerry Lewis telethon, can we get some tiny violins?
I arrived here late. Wow... So...
I went over to some other blogs, and found people saying things like "what the fuck, those mean women of color, getting all offended by people who are just trying to have a dialogue."
I'm sure I won't say anything anyone else hasn't already said, but... There is no fucking excuse for the kind of ignorance and entitlement that Krista and Brooke displayed here.
And as for the big Surprised Response to the anger they encountered here. What the fuck?? It. Is. Not. The. Job. Of. Women. Of. Color. To. Hold. Your. Hand. And. Teach. You. Racism 101. Or the History of Racism in America, for that matter. You come to a site like this and presume that you are entitled to a "dialogue" about why more women of color don't submit manuscripts to you? And then you accuse the author of "hating" and think this, too, is an opening for a productive discussion? Seriously???
Look, I'm white too, and there is nothing Culturally Acceptable about that kind of condescension. This is not a Cultural Difference. I can see it now--all the Seal Press folks retreating to their holes and crying, "Wait, it's okay to talk like this in Our Culture. This is just a Cultural Misunderstanding." No. This is a matter of white ignorance, white racism, white entitlement, white condescension, white refusal to examine history, white arrogance... I could go on. It is despicable. It is ubiquitous in White Liberal American Feminism, and it is really making me angry. I'm so angry, in fact, that I want to throw something right now. God damn.
Um... Sorry if this is a little off the handle. I had a hard time collecting my thoughts and responding to this at all. BA, your blog is awesome. And, yeah... Fuck Seal Press.
you are really upset beyond belief that a group of people who have worked so hard for something, who have sacrificed so much, who have spent so much time staying in an industry that they love, trying to reach out to people in the only ways they can, the only ways their job permits, and that when they see someone just say something that hurts them really really deep in their hearts, maybe you should take another look and see how you would feel if the things that you loved, the things that you have sweated blood and drowned in tears, were so simlarly dismissed, so callously disparaged.
First off it is taking all I have in me to stay calm. But here goes. Hi my name is Blackamazon the person you're kind of talking around and ofr the record since it seems to be relevant I am African Carribean, Native South American, Indian, Portugese/Irish/Dutch and Chinese/Javanese but as pictures of me will attest well I actually look liek all those things, the only thing I have ever passed for is Brazilian or Dominican but being 6ft and dark skinned somehow does not grant me a perch with which to distance myself or assert anything OTHEr tahn being identified as a WOC all day every day. But the assumption that any woman has to justify herself to me is something that as you said cna be addressed later.
Hi you see that description you gave that you wrote so heartfeelingly as a way to try and get us to see your side. Welcome to my blog , the network of blogs i blog with composed of all sorts of people. People I don't agree with on everything, of all different creeds colors, peopel i love peopel i don't like peopel I have over two years built through respect if not commonality, shoot women who have had it OUT on my blog also regularly wish each otehr the best.
This is what we made with OUR time our creative spaces , not just in between the " industry" but in between OUr VERY LIVES. It's not hard if you read my blog for naything but refrences to yourself to piece together the amazing stories of so many people on my blog CONnected to many otehr blogs
but to address obviously what concerned you : yourselves
My problem is that if you HAD jsut went BA your an asshole for saying that , you'd be right but of course you didn't you as is often happens elected me a vocie of what you understood to be a monotous univoiced group that you could sweepingly characterize and didn't bothe rto read cause the " anonymous " comment whose vernacular you missed so terribly,
was signed
but in doing so you made nasty , deflecting , hurtful comments about these people and teh very work they have scraped together with tehir fingers and keyboards not in their industries but in the spare minutes they have in tehir lives, learning growing changing. I am sorry mountains of privilege has not led me to your door. I am even more sorry you ASSUMED i was coming anyway , but as we said niether here nor there.
You are right I said Fuck Seal Press.
but you with out even an y prior introduction went THROUGH ME to go fuck you to a whole world of folks.
and THEN TRIED TO SAY BUT BUT BUT
heres all this stuff about me that makes it okay!
and now you don't want to be boycoted suddenly you want to find commonalities , not that you basically disrespected my work that yes it's ablog but i have cobbeled together through mountains and adversity to do so
But you ran fast and hard when it was shown
that
SOMEONE W OULD TAKE AND EXPECT A PUBLISHER TO BE RESPONSIBLE AND ACCOUNTABLE FOR HER WORDS
and we're to trust you with OUR WORK?!
and teh apology that is phrased ever so carefully to say
I am sorry if you wre offended because really being that disrespeced WE ChoosE to be offended it's something we choose to do to you and not in defense of our lives
our work
or the very personas and ideas we are trying to create
but hey teh intimations taht we have no where really to go and iT's HARD and teh fact we won't roll over are us being unreasonable
what else is there to say.
You're right you do NOT seem to have a reall stake in engaging in while difficult a dynamic and necessary conversation in any way that doesn't preserve entitle and teh ability of you to control teh discourse and maybe it would be best if you jsut went in peace
and let those of us who see each other as peopel continue.
We wait and hope for your return when ready.
I created the group; it's here.
Since it is brand spanking new, I ask that people be relatively patient as it gets off the ground. But you are welcome to request to join. The goal is to keep it as a safe space. If you're coming from this thread and you're interested in joining, just mention that. But please say something about why you think media is important, especially in relation to fighting oppression -- racism, sexism, homophobia, ablism, classism...
Here's to positive solutions to negative distractions.
Hi Blackamazon, if you were responding to me, I was agreeing with you. All the anger was about the Seal Press folks. I hope that was clear...?
Ooops, sorry, BA, I got through your whole post and realized you were responding to Seal Press's explanation blog post.
Sorry, my stupidity.
I was re-reading Letter from a Birmingham Jail, to find a good quote for today. And look what I found?:
[the white moderate is] more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. (Martin Luther King, Jr.)
Hmmm, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
(Context of entire quote here: April 4th
If it weren't for Shannon at Egotistical Whining, I would have assumed this thread had died. I'm kinda mad at Shannon now because I'm pissed beyond belief (not really mad at Shannon, but pissed, yes).
Haters? Negative Discourse? Are you fucking kidding me?
I gotta go lie down.
So sorry this thread got derailed the way it did. Regardless, I'm delurking to say you're a Bad Ass writer, which is what BA really stands for, donchaknow.
So, was WAM as unbearably awesome as I imagined?
Dear, Blackamazon. Thank you for creating a space where WOC feel comfortable writing and explaining their stories, thoughts, and so much more. I consider myself an ally, but I also know I have so much more to learn on the topic of race than I have to teach so I come and read your site (and so many sites of commenters here) and learn. A lot. Regularly. And I thank you for sharing because so many of you put up with ad hominem attacks from ignorant people who have a lot to learn as well.
And I'm disheartened to read comments written, not by two women who are trying to learn PR, but from two of the most powerful women of Seal Press. I'm broken hearted in fact. I've liked a lot of what they published, although my interest has waned recently. But their comments here were out of line. And I'm mostly sorry that their comments, which I honestly think were made without thinking instead of intentionally malicious, derailed a much-deserved love fest. You're great writers, this is a great community, and you should be proud of yourselves. Thank you for the years of learning you've provided. I'm very grateful.
Blackamazon, I have just come to your blog by following links from other blogs regarding the Seal and Amanda from Pandagon issues. I just wanted to say thank you to all the WOC who have put forward their feelings and opinions here (and elsewhere). As a white woman, I have learned more about white privilege from reading these comments than I have from any where else. I am now going to find some feminist texts written by WOC to see what else I have been blind to. Thanks again to you all.
You know, the whole "we want more WOC" thing would carry a lot more weight if so many white bloggers hadn't been APPROACHED by Seal Press and asked to write proposals. They don't GET enough proposals from WOC? Then why not ASK for more? They seem to have no problem doing it with white bloggers.
Stop playing the race card and grow up.
it is so unfortunate that so many women on here seem resentful of WHITE women. All women will benefit by allying themselves. Not everything has to be about race. The longer you hold on to that difference, the longer you are giving permission for the rest of the world to do so. By the way, I am a WOC.
to anonymous of comment #91: i don't read this and see resent of white women (and i am one). i read this and see white women coming into a space where they feel they can act as they please, being disrespectful, silencing the women who don't respond as they expect them to (they deleted their initial post on the seal press blog, which i believe is back up - but not all of the comments that went into it got to stay or even see the light of day), and people who have NOT been following this from day one coming out from salon's post where they've reached the assumption that the women here are whining because they want book deals.
ba already said this, but really, the means in which anyone translates "fuck seal press" to "i want a book deal from seal press," is just not clicking for me. BECAUSE IT'S NOT THERE.
there is a difference between been angry or being hurt and being resentful.
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