Brownfemipower is so cool ( And Biggups to Frowner for helping crystalize a thought on this)
I am sick and not in the sick and tired way but in the i smell of orangejuice and DayQuil way
So I catched up on the Carnival of Feminists and random blogosphere bits
And became both sick , sick and tired, and fucking angry. I know there was a larger Blogosphere ( excellent posts all)fight that thanks to giving up on the larger blogospher eI avoided but It really is something I Want to address
One thing I love is that having been a participant in many of these " lipstick and blowjob" discussions . I am infuriated at how repeatedly and cavalierly peopel dismiss the honest critiques made by SPECIFIC communities about the problems we have with them to
" YALL JUST JELLUS"
and in the same conversation go
" I miss when it was just us against the patriarchy"
or
" why is feminism so mean now?!"
Wow thanks , it is always nice to know that in adddition to having our substansive critique mocked by being reduced to " meaness" . We are now the problems with feminism , mind you peopl who have made no attempt to be ina ny way inclusive or amiable towards these discussions get treated with BOATLOADS more respect than WOC and differently abled and trans and allies making the same commentary with much more deference to their intelligence.
I also read through and got annoyed by the whole fun feminist/hot feminist , confessionals.
One become I am an evil mean hussy and truly believe that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and there is a huge difference between conventionally attractive, beautiful,attractive, ugly and the like.
There are also levels of attractiveness, sexual attractiveness.......
So my first problem is when someone goes " Oh they resent her attractiveness" Is
- HEEEEEEEE! Says you
- Please don't force your appraisal of a European beauty standard match up on me.
- Yeah she cute and? That doesn't paralyze one for me making a critique of the problemswith her use of that perception and how it feeds into the patriarchy and sometimes straight up oppression of other women AND
- Once again hee says you.
Whats the most offensive things about them is that as these confessionals are made is that one of the unsaid things about these I accept my " hotness" posts. IS that they are always without fail and always never adressed in the post or otherwise made by a white woman reaffirming white attributes .
Oh and it's worse when they do the DANCE around the fact that a VITAL component of " your attractivness is the fact that it exemplifies a form of whiteness" .
Not to mention a nonwhiteperson having these traits is a punchline.
So not only is whiteness hotness trying to attain hotness as a non white is a joke.
( Remind me to tell my red headed mom and my blue eyed cousins they are fooling themselves ) ( Also here is another big problem: I fucking DESPISE the idea that part of the you envy is encasing a You want to be white without anyone ANYONE picking up the sac to adress teh problems of not having that on the table)
And when this " attractiveness" contributes to you having all of the privileges while also contributes to other women having definite LACKS and I don't mean not having your privileges I mean not being able to be employed or take steps to leave an abusive man or ya know not get targeted for annilation , yeah I am gonna go after EVERYMOTHERFUCKING THING that grants you that privilege and to distill it to jealousy is not only fucking disrespectful
IT IS ANTIFEMINIST.
Not to mention this undercover it's cause you're not hot but that's OKAY is some of the most looksist bullshit irony or not .
So hot means what .. Approved by men? So everyone who isn't interested in men gets to sit down now because you're performance of feminity which can BE THE EXACT SAME FUCKING THING is now off the table. And your use of these tropes must be subsumed into the analysis of straight women and all the other shit that makes that a choice for you because hmmm even " Well I do the same thing but not ofr that reason or not in that manner or even I don't like that characterization of it " becomes
YALL JUST JELLUS
Great. Hotness - male approval then
Here's my confession
I'm hot too. Well less hot than stop a room stunning.
I am . I'm a six footer with as my wife calls " GINORMOUS Knockers" ( and reasonably perky) Big ole puffy mouth and high cheekbones that could cut you some glass. What are pimples? Only have maybe one a year ( put do hyper pigment DAMN YOU INDIA AND GHANA DAMN YOU!)
Shave and wax cause for real them Indian Genes leave you hairy like a mofo and those clanted bedroom " chinky" ( whoever came up with that term needs a beating) eyes
I am fat but its mitigated by the fact that I am a rather devastating hourglass ...IF I could find clothes
Which I can't for various reasons but ity's not like that prevents me from working... OOPS it does
And the hair its a wild amalgam of curlyness and nappyness and fullness that signals my innerwildchlid. It's hair people wanna grab ( and try to)
Except my hotness doesn't make me acceptable it makes me dangerous which in turn makes me someone who needs to be ignored or isolated or unemployed and oversexualized.
See my hotness is very much onnected to how NOT WHITE I am . Any performance of my feminity of my understanding of my hotness will actually result in my DETRIMENT.
So why in the FUCK do I have to protect YOUR FEMINITY when mine is always under attack AND the fact that you both ignore critique of this fact and treat as jealousy is contributing to the infantalizing and self destruction of girls coming up under me.
It is damn ny impossible to find lipstick in a non come hither bigboy shade. I am almond eyed and can' t go to a make up counter with out someone having an oooh we'll make you look HOT and sexy like Beyonce and punch those up a bity make you MORE exotic.
( iT takes nearly three MAC colors to match me but motherfuckers always find shades to do this stupid shit)
I am 22 years old and know better what about the 12 year old . ANd I don't blame the makeup artists at all . They are participating in a commerce that emphasizes these attributes about
WOMEN LIKE ME
and have to work with what their given. But it still is an effect of feminity performance so nope make up not just make up AND not necessarily atool of the partriarchy either
Not to mention rather than adress it so We CAN form community people wring hands at the meaness?
It's not that people are mean it's that after nearly two years ( I've been blogging for a year in January and on good advice of those who before me) that this is going on adfiniteum .
And it comes down in essence to this.
For some folks community only means community if it is exactly how they want to form it. What the parameters of discussion will be how much they have to deal with outside their comfortzone. When real community building happens it happens with birth pains and having thos epains shows who the builders are and who the pretenders are . Pain is the exposure of weakpoints ( to paraphrase Pain is weakness leaving the body) to the stress that show where they are weak . To make naything strong it must tear and break and HURT.
And anybody who keeps asking why this has to hurt so much is asking in essence why did it have to change.
And to see that after many times of what people hoped was honest open discussion People still luxuriate blindly in the erasure of WOC statements and consensus only in the abscence of POC critique says a lot about them .
People HAVE offered community , what they offered wasn't EASY community, it wasn't UNCHECKED community, and it wasn't this skip through the feilds no question sisterhood either. And then I wonder maybe they aren't ready for it maybe their too weak and feebleminded
MAYBE
THEY"RE JUST JELLUS!
Hmm now see how that one feels
And if you noticed I have avoided linking to some of the specific critiques because of this. As I surfed I noticed how many times people I adored were being non quoted snidely , and or dissmissed so the discussion of happy fairy sisterhood could go off without a hitch.
WHat made me angrier is how many times these same people had ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS been jusicious and responsible to these same wankstas in quoting them and offering them chanches to defend the critique the peopel I adored were making. That is the silencing of people for the advancement of a cause and if it's done by men we need to ride but done by women and it's
A-OK
FUCK THAT
26 comments:
It has long been my impression that some 'feminists' are really just Cosmo readers in a 'cooler' disguise.
hey, if we could never argue about porn again, I for one would be thrilled...or lipstick, blow jobs, or body image.
And I wish I was 6 foot tall...
BTW: Do you EVER say anything that does not pretty much rock or make hardline complete sense? Just curious...
This is excellent, as usual, and brings up many good points.
I don't really have anything substantive to add, but I've often wondered (once I discovered "feminists" online) if it wasn't fear that was keeping some stuck in the "lipstick/blowjobs/shaving/etc" stuff (that I could have sworn was being debated 20 or 30 years ago) instead of moving on. I wonder, is it that some have no idea that there is anything to move on to? I mean anything that some might feel affects their own lives as well as those who are "other" than them. Or is it maybe fear that they don't have the knowledge or wherewithal to address issues that might not be considered within their purview, or what.
In many fields without specific blueprints for action, or hard and fast rules such as one finds in the hard sciences and so on - in the creative fields like writing, the arts or, I would include, various political or other areas that require coalitioning, stepping outside yourself to some extent, the most common advice seems to be "go with what you know". Even if it sometimes is not actually articulated advice, but more of a "this is how things are done" thing. So while you'd think that feminism, feminist studies and coalitions would naturally be more innovative, more outward reaching, more activist in many areas just by virtue of the fact that (in my view) feminism could and should be at the forefront of anti racism, anti poverty, pro-civil/human rights matters (for all genders/sexual orientations), anti bad laws that affect mostly the poor (for now) and so on (and to be fair, many feminists seem to have at least a passing interest in these matters), mostly it seems - and I could be really, really wrong about this, as I don't read all that many white feminist sites anymore - but anyway, mostly it seems that the greatest comfort level is found with all the vagina gazing stuff. Go with what you now.
" I miss when it was just us against the patriarchy"
Do I have it wrong when one of my first thoughts on hearing something like this is... "but don't you realize... to many, a good number of you ARE the patriarchy"?
As an aside, this made me laugh:
Oh and it's worse when they do the DANCE around the fact that a VITAL component of " your attractivness is the fact that it exemplifies a form of whiteness" .
Acknowledging, of course, that stardards of "beauty" change from generation to generation, I look around at all the products being touted that will make your skin shiny, at people getting stuff injected into their lips to make them puffy; at those who still risk skin cancer to brown their skin; at hours spent on stair steppers to make their butts high and tight; lifting weights (or the number of their plastic surgeons) to increase breast size; at the pulling back of skin at the temples (either with tape or permanently to "exoticize" their eyes; at the billions spent on fluffing, curling, perming, twirling and so on of the hair to give it volume and substance ... and I just have to laugh and wonder...
- just who is trying to appropriate whom?
i've come in on the side of some of the "fun" feminists in certain contexts (i don't like when it turns into femme-bashing and slut-baiting, which i think it often can). that said, "you're just JEALOUS" is such utter bullshit i wanna hurl. i'd ask who, but...nah. it's common enough, i guess. sigh.
and you're dead on about how "conventional" attractiveness means WHITE conventional attractiveness. that -is- worth deconstructing.
yeah truthfully i'd much rather talk about -that.- what the "desirable" image is supposed to be, deconstruct that, how that came about, where it comes from, what it means for people who don't fit into it as well as for the people who do, in GENERAL. not so much about how so and so is a brainwashed 'bot because she hasn't examined/whosis is jealous because so and so is HAWT/REAL feminists/well i guess i'm NOT a feminist then so NEENER/i AM TOO A FEMINIST/lather rinse repeat/shoots self...
nanette: i think that's a really astute observation, about the various fears. i think they're all there; both the walking-on-eggshells business, oh, i don't really know enough about -that- to talk about it. And it's true that sometimes people do spout off and get jumped on (often rightly) for it; of course, one way out of this seeming double-bind might be to read listen learn and -then- talk, (and just deal with it if you make a mistake, apologize, or not, whatever, but keep going); but well, that's harder, isn't it.
but also i think you're touching on something -really- key: the lack of a real framework.
part of this, i have been thinking, is that a lot of women reach back for the "fundaments" of feminism as they understand it, "radical" feminism a la Dworkin, because it's -a- framework, at least. It may not be all that relevant (or apparently, it -is,- to some people, still, shrug); but it's at least comprehensive.
In general on the loosely defined left, at least in the U.S., i'd say we're pretty starved for...well, BL might quarrel with me here, but i'm gonna say: structure. New theories. New frames. Yeah, okay, deconstruct; but ultimately people like cohesion, I think; sooner or later you need to put the pieces back together again, make new shapes, make a new -vehicle- to get us to the next stage. because otherwise we're just wandering around and clutching the various pieces, not really sure how they all fit together.
i just think it's really hard to build a -movement- like that, you know, with no clearly defined principles, loose maybe, but still -some- sort of frame, binding it all together. maybe there's a way, but damned if i know of it.
at best we all seem to come together based on what we're -against,- which is always easy enough i suppose.
but ultimately if you don't also know what you're -for-, you're inevitably gonna hit a wall.
of course, there -are- people who have new ideas; they tend to not be at the center at the moment; and it'd certainly behoove us all in general if we many or most of us were better at y'know -paying attention- to what other people have to say rather than being all blah blah blah GINGER...
anyway what i was starting to say was:
...ehh, sweeping generalization alert, but: in some ways i see the Energizer-Bunny-Like blowjob, lipstick, etc. wars as kinda sorta related to the overarching "jihad vs. McWorld" thing (title of a book, stay with me, here). in other words: consumer-dominated, empty, increasingly class-gapped "McCulture"--I think honestly that's what's -really- relevant about the "choice" critique, except hardly anyone ever seems to frame it that way, at least in feminism--versus various fundamentalisms.
I see radfem as a kind of fundamentalism, actually. A minor one, but still.
"Gi' me that old-time feminism, gi'me that old time feminism...It was good enough for Dworkin, it was good enough for Dworkin, it was good enough for Dworkin and it's good enough for meeee..."
but in fact, it makes a lot of sense: Dworkin-style feminism offers what a lot of other forms of feminism don't: an overarching framework in which to put the world, as I've said; clear-cut principles; and at this point, even some sense of tradition, oddly enough. A historical context. But also, more important, a -mythic- context.
like i say, it's just one minor substrand among everything going on. And even with my own personal interest in the Feminist Wars, I still don't think this'd be as interesting to me as it is if it weren't for the fact that yes, in fact, i do kind of place it within a larger context, of resurgent reactionary movements and fundamentalisms rising as a response to what's seen as a structureless, soulless, predatory "mainstream" culture. Again, often with good reason.
that's a bit vague; i need to think on this some more, and as i said: -sweeping- generalization alert. but...
point being: we need new forms, new theories, new structures, new (I really hate this word, but, sigh, sometimes nothing else will do) paradigms, if we're gonna go forward. i don't just mean feminism(s) here, either, or even just the left. it feels like kind of a major chord in the world right now, somehow...
I think there are several reasons for the continual infighting among feminists.
First, there's no movement for women's rights in the US. There are small nonprofit groups, and the rump of some liberal and radical groups, but there's no mass social movement as such. Theory is derived from experience -- and there's very little lived experience of a dynamic social movement that wins concrete gains.
Second, and I expect more controversial, is that I understand sexism to be rooted in the class system. Trying to understand sexism (or any other form of oppression) in isolation from the class system (or with just a cursory wave at the issue of class) won't lead to a coherent understanding of sexism nor to a coherent strategy for overcoming sexism.
Third, a lot of the feminists we're complaining of are middle class, or identify with the middle class, and are committed to the political strategy of liberalism -- in other words, are what were classically described as bourgeois feminists.
I find the experience of class status is essentially different from the experience of ethnicity, gender, sexuality, or other facets of identity which can be singled out for oppression. Middle class or capitalist class status are directly dependent upon social power. If you don't have a lot of wealth under your control, you're not a capitalist. If you don't have a group of clients who answer to you, you can't maintain your middle class status. Lose those things and your class status is lost immediately.
Middle class activists have to prove themselves necessary to both of the main classes -- which means they have a direct interest in preventing the development of organization among the working class that's independent of middle class leadership.
This is usually understood in meritocratic terms. In college, I was used to identity politics activists insisting that they were, by right, the leaders of and speakers for their identity groups, by virtue of the fact that they were college students. It's not that there's anything wrong with being a student, per se -- more people go to college than establish themselves as middle class. It's the meritocratic ideology that is a problem with student activists.
The trouble is that, at the moment in the US, there's not independent organization of the working class to point to. Oaxaca, on the other hand, is a brilliant example -- unfortunately unfamiliar to most people, at least those who don't know Spanish and don't follow Spanish-language or alternative radical left media. Brownfemipower, among others, has been really great about this.
The key is that overcoming oppression must be the act of the oppressed themselves, because only they can work out what they want for themselves.
I'll make it short.
Fuck em.
They don't define me, I don't buy into their standard of beauty I don't even pay them much mind. They can wax lyrical all they want with the condescending spell checking bollocks... but it just gets brushedoff my shoulder.
They can't even begin to define a movement which I will buy into, no way.
oh p.s.
yep flowers are good. But onlyif you'll accept some tea
I think it is tied up in class, yes.
but I also think that the...twist...here is that one of the main anti-lipstick, blahblah figures on the feminist-related Internetz is upper-middle herself (at least), and does -not- relate her lippy-bashing to anything remotely resembling class analysis. instead...
I mean, this was -cute-, okay:
http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/radiantnewfeminist.jpg
seriously, what is this responding to? who among the -feminists- said -she- or any other feminist needs to get more pink and girlie with it? for fuck's sake, enough already.
I know at least one person who's had a positive road to Damascus over all the femme-bashing, all the scolding and "EXAMINE" blah blah; she was one of the kindest, most patient, doing her best to "keep up" with the radical feminists...she's now FURIOUS. i don't blame her at all. she's not a Cosmo glamour girl going to Clinton luncheons, either. she's a sweet woman who works in the healthcare/caregivers industry, has a lot of tattoos, has had her own share of abuse, and happens to love unicorns and pink and dressing up, and, oh yeah, feminism was really important to her. is. she's not sure at the moment. she's been mindfucked. she's not the only one. it's not small.
(also was subject to the charming experience of openly having struggled with an eating disorder and reading a lot of -seriously- fucked up remarks on that as well, all in the name of "feminism.")
and frankly, while the Cosmo look is related to class, plain ol' girliness is not necessarily; and yet often enough it seems to boil down to making fun of -that- as well.
pink and cleavage don't necessarily cost an arm and a leg. they sure are looked down on by the mainstream, though. too.
...actually, you know, the "sexbot" thing, i've always thought that was classist as well. Yah, the ideal is "feminine" and "sexy," but not -too- sexy; otherwise she's a "slut," which still means, y'know, gutter. Mostly. Paris Hilton notwithstanding.
and i swear that's a big part of why some people have their sensible undies in a knot. Time was, you knew how to recognize a "slut;" now -everyone looks like that. why, someone might even expect -me- to look like that! ME! the outrage! things just ain't what they used to be...
I do think that the extra curve -here- is that in fact, as BA is noting, i think, the pressure to be "decorative" and "girlie" (as in connoting sweet, delicate, fragile, yadda), is -traditionally- aimed at -white- women.
and when a middle-to-upper class, "traditionally feminine," white woman starts talking about "I am lipstick wearer, hear me cough delicately," it (I am guessing) presses some WOC buttons hard, because it's like: okay, you're so delicate, the other, radfem (mostly white, also, frankly) women are being meen; and I am, again, still, -where- in this equation? And I'm supposed to protect your delicate feelings? Gee, why does -that- feel all too familiar? ...you know what, fuck off, really.
which, as such, i can't say I'd blame anyone?
it's just, y'know:
well, i already said it.
mostly it's:
a lot of different people being shitty; a lot of different ways of being shitty; and most days it really does seem like there just isn't enough listening to go around.
among other things.
>" I miss when it was just us against the patriarchy"
Do I have it wrong when one of my first thoughts on hearing something like this is... "but don't you realize... to many, a good number of you ARE the patriarchy"?>
Nope.
Or rather: you are the System. you are (!) the Man. at least, some of the time; which, surprise! to one degree or another, in one -context- or another, most if not all of us are. And in -this- equation, well: "whaddya mean 'we,' ___ girl?" 'cause I'm feeling your dainty little foot on my neck right now.
try telling Certain People that, though. it's actually kind of fun, the first few times at least. then you tend to get kind of tired of the screaming.
I think part of teh reason we go loopdey loo on this so fucking much is that for real
The actual "CONVERSATION" hasn't happened.
By which I mean the I listen you listen we include many point of views and facts , AND emotions and we honor people's perspectives. We acknowledge the various privileges running through it and we talk.
What I find annoying is teh fact that in the couple times I was in teh convo EXACTLY what belle described happened . AFor some reason I have no idea why considering teh histroy a plethora of women lesboians , Trans, butch . femme WOC all came in and were slowly talking to each other and rather tahn be amazed at the fact wow w could be respectful and you knwo move for ward
The middle class straight women and teh middle class radfems who wante dto be the boss of the middle class straight folk went right back at it
HOLY FUCK.
Bitch gives analysis nd critique Belle gives wonderful lit crit
and they still get treated with LESS RESPECT than
TWISTY
THE HOLY HELL FUCK
It's like when I read RE's blog adn here is a woman honest about what she feels honest about her motivations intelligent and sharing about her motivations ...
( specifically the amazing post on why she wanted implants)
AND IF SHE GETS CALLED A TOOL
ONE
MORE
TIME
I Will brain someone with a wrench.
I'm not saying I agree but fuck tit up and listen.
YOu make a frame around a picture and to get a picture you nee dto get the whole picture.
Performing feminitity is A HUGE entity ion teh female life and I'd part with a signififcant something to get some real level analysis . AN d for real certain blogs
ARE DOING THAT
And I'm sorry this youre picking on teh pretty girl
NO I'm picking on teh girl who put out why can't lipstick be jsut lipstick got some real amazing answers ( even if you leave out POC/LGBT/ such and such answers) about how it wasn;t jsut a fun feminist thing
from OTHER " ATTRACTIVE" white owmen.
and took the privilege of being able to ignore that to FOCUs not just adress but FOCUS
on the answer s that made femininity victim
and watching these women default to youre being mean
MEAN-- I threatend folks with machete wann se mean gimme a tick
I shall show you mean
And part of working it out is expressing it so in a sense
I'm not at all dwelling but I do really want to have that convo I want to talk about feminiinty and body shape and charachteristics peopel feel theyre fighting
and sex and all that good stuff in a fun frought fierce congenial atmospher
AND HOW MY GOD lookit
when we step back a bit
TALK TO not at each other comitt to both being unashamed
( i think a lot of these women are ashamed of their choices so feed of of this youre okay or righteous horse nuttery)
and real about wht we feel oh shit
WE HAVE IT
we're having it now
in VARIOUS places
so I;' get abit
okay
firey out my eyes
ticked that
The same women wring their hands at why there is no solidarity
and teh hood rat in me goes
FUCK YOU ya dumb bitch ( as opposed to the smart bitch)
and the academic goes
Well
FUCK YOU YOU ENTITLED BITCH.
Wow...
As y'all know, for the most part, I have thrown up my hands and walked away spitting from a great deal of the 'whole feminism deal' (like seemingly a lot of folks have) because, you know, so very true, most of the 'big women on campus', while they surely have had their trials and tribulations, are white, highly educated, middle-class-ish and fuckin' ruthless and hideous to ANYONE who does not fit the mold, tow the line. Sure, part of it is defensive. Part of it is bullshit, and any one of them who says they can smell it without checking the bottoms of their own shoes??? Um, yeah.
Listen, I can in NO WAY claim to know what life is like for WOC, in feminism or out of it. I am a white eastern european jewish girl who grew up on the lower side of middle class with both parents and all that good stuff, but I can say I have seen plenty of "you're not good enough" for everyone...not radical enough, too pretty, too conventional, too black, too angry, too passive, too young, too privleged, too wishy-washy...TOO EVERYTHING SOMEONE ELSE expects you to be. Thanks but no thanks, know what I mean? I mean, we all have things we don't like, about society, feminism, the patriarchy, our looks, our souls, the world in general, and I am sick of people jumping on other folks open wounds with a salt shaker and bottle of vinegar. I mean, how is that more productive than, oh, say, working to see that women have access to birth control or that rape crisis centers have enough folks manning the phone lines when funds run low? Eh, but what the hell do I know? I am an enabling whore with fake tits, after all...no idea whatsoever what it is like to be a 'real woman'...
Well enabling whore you can sit by the oversize d prude naytime but what bothers me is this idea of
feminism is a big tent....
THAT WE WILL BE KICKING EVERYONE OUT OF NOW
and we all have our problems
FOR REASONS
WHat are those reasons why are we having those fights lets work on that ya know?
I really think in a lot of ways peopel are doing excellent jobs dsiscussing it and these fights or
Kumbaya wayward feminists
serve to oull focus whe n its noticed folks get way to close to ya know ignoring them and getting together
Hmm iVe been thinking of having a week of posts dedciated to stuff oOTHER Feminists would like myopinion on for a group of folks
anybody willing?
>I mean, we all have things we don't like, about society, feminism, the patriarchy, our looks, our souls, the world in general, and I am sick of people jumping on other folks open wounds with a salt shaker and bottle of vinegar.
Word.
>I think part of teh reason we go loopdey loo on this so fucking much is that for real
The actual "CONVERSATION" hasn't happened.
By which I mean the I listen you listen we include many point of views and facts , AND emotions and we honor people's perspectives. We acknowledge the various privileges running through it and we talk.
WORD.
and, you know, sometimes people will go, oh well what can you do, it's only the Internetz;
but i honestly don't think that's it.
and no, ANN, it would not help EITHER if we all stopped using ZOMG screennames.
might help if you and some other fine folks took off the tinfoil every once in a while, though
BA: sure!
BA:
Sure!
I'd like to inject aging into the mix too--not just class and race and gender.
As a woman pushing 50 (wow that feels weird to say out loud; I still feel in my head like a dumb teenager lots of the time) the conversation among younger feminists, while interesting and enlightening and frustrating and infuriating is also somewhat alienating because my concerns are much different than theirs. In some ways. Some ways they're the same.
So I'm constantly struggling with my first: class reaction (you middle class women don't know jack about how economically poor women feel about this and don't care besides lip service--hehe lip service, lipstick service, pretty funny) but also that reaction of "this is such a petty white thing" and "this is such a petty young women's thing."
Which I know can be limiting in its own way and I have to fight that all the time. Cuz I don't want to just be a reactionary, "your experiences aren't as valid as mine" type of person, especially when I feel like that sounds more like jealousy than analysis. Or more like insecurity than analysis.
But face it the things that concerned me in my 20s aren't really the things that concern me too much now in my almost-50s. Like lipstick has never been much in my radar anyway but it's really even less now that I don't much give a fuck about conventional beauty standards that tend toward youth of any race.
So yeah, class, race, gender, dis/ability, age, menopause, just plain broke-ness. The effects of time and gravity on the body; the affects of those things plus dis/ability plus class on economic level, the affects of economic level on aging.
Too fucking much. We need serious dialogue that is more inclusive, for real.
*sigh*
I love kactus like it was my job
Oh wow. I'm grinning ear to ear. Without lipstick on.
*jeez*
yeah, it seems like a petty distinction, maybe, but i think it's important:
"I'd like to talk about what's important to -me-, now, ALSO; I'd like to be heard and taken seriously now, ALSO"
=!
"Stop talking about what's important to you; shut up."
it shouldn't, anyway.
and honestly i think that a -lot- of the time, certainly at least from the people posting here and reasonable people in general (there are also some chronic asshats/empathy-devoid sucking black holes of need for attention for whom i would make an exception), the -only- reason it ever seems to get to the point of the latter is because the frustration level at the former going ignored and ignored and ignored and IGNORED finally just reaches a tipping point.
which, and then it feels good to vent, and it's often totally necessary; but at the end of it we're still left with: so, nu, now what?
all i know is that with some people, it truly does feel like trying to dance with someone who's hearing another tune altogether, insists on leading, and/or goes completely immobile.
the question is, do you keep grimly trodding on? give up on just -this- partner and go look for others? give up on this dance hall altogether? give up on dancing altogether? channel all your frustration into -kicking- the thoughtless lump that's been stepping on your toes until sie -finally- feels a little of what you've been feeling (maybe), but still won't ever understand -why- you're kicking hir? go dance by yourself?
...and so on.
from BD.
"which, and then it feels good to vent, and it's often totally necessary; but at the end of it we're still left with: so, nu, now what?
all i know is that with some people, it truly does feel like trying to dance with someone who's hearing another tune altogether, insists on leading,"
And that is exactly where I am at today....
I vote we do it like Cheryl and Emitt
pUt on our shiny shoes
Happy feet
and dance the way we want to
well run into each other
drop each other
and fall the fuck out
But hey long as we got music
well find away
Late to the post, but:
"I'd like to talk about what's important to -me-, now, ALSO; I'd like to be heard and taken seriously now, ALSO"
=!
"Stop talking about what's important to you; shut up."
it shouldn't, anyway.
Pretty much. I'm really tired of getting dismissed as a troll--or a unicorn--every time I try to introduce some other perspective on the same issue. Or, what's even worse, getting told by these same people that I'm talking about something petty and trivial, because we have all moved on. The responses usually take one of three forms:
1) Well, you just insert tab A into slot B...
2) That's completely different. It just is.
3) Look, we're talking about reality/women here, not airy-fairy postmodern abstractions/insignificant minorities/men/you people/those women.
So I'm constantly struggling with my first: class reaction (you middle class women don't know jack about how economically poor women feel about this and don't care besides lip service--hehe lip service, lipstick service, pretty funny) but also that reaction of "this is such a petty white thing" and "this is such a petty young women's thing."
Which I know can be limiting in its own way and I have to fight that all the time. Cuz I don't want to just be a reactionary, "your experiences aren't as valid as mine" type of person, especially when I feel like that sounds more like jealousy than analysis. Or more like insecurity than analysis.
Hm. I had my own kneejerk reaction to that, honestly--I think it's because you mean the discussion and I hear the topic. Like the difference between discussing abortion and discussing reproductive rights, there's a difference between discussing beauty standards and discussing bikini waxing. And these discussions could be inclusive and therefore of broader interest if most of the parties would stop acting as though straight/white/western/middle-class/cisgendered/young was the only position from which to address or receive these cultural tropes. That turns your contribution into a derail and you into a malcontent.
girl. i must confess--i haven't gotten thru the entire post--i'm dead sleepy, just finished studying and must sleep for a few hours before my awesome friend (visiting from NYC) gets here for my BD, and we'll take our pretty asses out to pick up some women (hopefully), or just hang out and dance--single, tipsy, and happy.
i really hope you're feeling better (you said you were sick last week). and thank you for remembering to always drop by and say hey tho i get lost a lot.
well, i'm off--to get lost until after dec. 15 (my last exam). take care, girl; don't catch any more colds. talk to you soon i hope.
in the meantime, be happy.
sky.
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